Copper Bullet questions, as I make the switch

[Deleted member 28227]

I've decided to switch over to all copper for 2019, but I have some lingering questions and as someone who is knew to reloading would love some schooling.

I'm currently shooting a .264 wing mag for everything. Current load is 140grn Nosler Partitions, with Retumbo, shooting ~3100 fps. I worked up a hotter load but it wasn't as accurate so this one was the sweet spot. Funds are limited so I'm a one rifle guy at this point and used this rifle for Elk, Muley's, Pronghorn, Bears, Caribou, etc. and plan on hunting Moose in the next year or so. I feel 100% comfortable with this as a one quiver rifle with Partitions, especially as I limit my shots to under 250 yards and broadside/quartering away shots.

I'm hoping to find a similar one quiver setup with 120 Etips but I have a few questions.

1. Starting load pretty slim for .264... nonexistent for Retumbo and Etips... thinking start at min for a 120 bullet with Retumbo and work up?
2. 120grn copper are similar length to 140grn partitions so I assume that even though I have a 1 in 9 twist I should be ok if I'm getting good groups from partitions?
3. Understanding sectional density with copper. Obviously this method of accessing penetration potential doesn't take into account material as it's just caliber and weight... so is it safe to assume that a monolithic copper bullet will have similar terminal performance to a bullet like a Swift A-frame or Nosler Partition of the same length? Trying to decide if I should switch back to a 140 Partition for Moose or if the Etip will do the job just as well.
4. Velocity, I should be shooting for speeds similar to a 140 grain lead bullet and not of a 120 bullet because the extra length on the copper is going to create more pressure? So instead of shooting for ~3250fps more like ~3100fps

 

[JLS]

I've decided to switch over to all copper for 2019, but I have some lingering questions and as someone who is knew to reloading would love some schooling.

I'm currently shooting a .264 wing mag for everything. Current load is 140grn Nosler Partitions, with Retumbo, shooting ~3100 fps. I worked up a hotter load but it wasn't as accurate so this one was the sweet spot. Funds are limited so I'm a one rifle guy at this point and used this rifle for Elk, Muley's, Pronghorn, Bears, Caribou, etc. and plan on hunting Moose in the next year or so. I feel 100% comfortable with this as a one quiver rifle with Partitions, especially as I limit my shots to under 250 yards and broadside/quartering away shots.

I'm hoping to find a similar one quiver setup with 120 Etips but I have a few questions.

1. Starting load pretty slim for .264... nonexistent for Retumbo and Etips... thinking start at min for a 120 bullet with Retumbo and work up?
2. 120grn copper are similar length to 140grn partitions so I assume that even though I have a 1 in 9 twist I should be ok if I'm getting good groups from partitions?
3. Understanding sectional density with copper. Obviously this method of accessing penetration potential doesn't take into account material as it's just caliber and weight... so is it safe to assume that a monolithic copper bullet will have similar terminal performance to a bullet like a Swift A-frame or Nosler Partition of the same length? Trying to decide if I should switch back to a 140 Partition for Moose or if the Etip will do the job just as well.
4. Velocity, I should be shooting for speeds similar to a 140 grain lead bullet and not of a 120 bullet because the extra length on the copper is going to create more pressure? So instead of shooting for ~3250fps more like ~3100fps

I don't have any experience with E tips, but I've been loading Barnes TSX since the inception of the bullet, and Hammer bullets for a couple of years.

1. I've never used Retumbo, but I see Nosler doesn't even list it in their powders for the 264 Winny. Why not use their most accurate powder (IMR 4350).
2. You should.
3. Yes, you will likely see weight retention of 95% or more. Your 140 grain Partition is only designed to retain about 60-70% of its weight, putting it at less than what your mono bullet will weigh after expansion. I'd have NO qualms about shooting anything in the lower 48 with 120 grain Mono.
4. The E tip does not have the cannelures a TSX does, but I don't have personal experience with the alloy used. The manual data shows 3200 fps with a max load of IMR 4350.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

4. The E tip does not have the cannelures a TSX does, but I don't have personal experience with the alloy used. The manual data shows 3200 fps with a max load of IMR 4350.

See that's my confusion because they put both their 120 balistic tip and 120 grain etip on the same chart even though they are very different bullets... did they basically get the same results for both bullets or did they just run the the ballistic tip.

As for powders, basically since I'm just working with one rifle and load for everything I wanted it temp stable as I will use it in 80 degree weather for pronghorn and below zero for late season elk. Maybe I'm over thinking...
https://www.hodgdon.com/extreme-rifle-powders/

 

[JLS]

See that's my confusion because they put both their 120 balistic tip and 120 grain etip on the same chart even though they are very different bullets... did they basically get the same results for both bullets or did they just run the the ballistic tip.

As for powders, basically since I'm just working with one rifle and load for everything I wanted it temp stable as I will use it in 80 degree weather for pronghorn and below zero for late season elk. Maybe I'm over thinking...
https://www.hodgdon.com/extreme-rifle-powders/

I don't have any idea. It could be differences in bearing surfaces (or similarities) that made the same data?

 

[mrjashu]

See that's my confusion because they put both their 120 balistic tip and 120 grain etip on the same chart even though they are very different bullets... did they basically get the same results for both bullets or did they just run the the ballistic tip.

I've loaded Barnes LRX and Hornady GMX and my method has been to use the same starting load data with the same weight class of bullets but in my experience the mono-metal bullets tend to spike pressures a little more quickly so you have to work your loads up slowly and watch carefully for pressure.

I'm on a similar journey as you having just bought a couple of boxes of 120g E-tips to try in my 6.5CM
Let us know how it goes!

 

[cahunter805]

I’d load the Barnes 120Gr TTSX. 61-67gr of retumbo is what the load data says. 3200-3250 is what I’d expect velocity to be with retumbo also.
Mono bullets need speed to open so don’t be afraid to push them.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

The books all go by weight on them rather than surface area on the bullets. I would assume therefore that the weight has a whole lot more to do with the pressure buildup than the surface area.

 

[JLS]

The books all go by weight on them rather than surface area on the bullets. I would assume therefore that the weight has a whole lot more to do with the pressure buildup than the surface area.

Certainly it does. However, bullet construction is certainly something to consider, and monos with cannelures cut/cast in such as Hammers and Barnes are going to exhibit different pressure characteristics.

 

[DSMeyer]

It is most likely different material composition as to the bearing cuts, it could also be that Barnes patented them too. Any way you slice it I have loaded mono bullets by weight only. If it’s 120 grain I’ll go through all of my books and online charts to see which powder ( that I have in hand) to use and where to start. Then proceeded as usual with the load ladder and test phases. Like others have said, you want the highest accuracy node for these guys.

 

[mtmuley]

Call Steve at Hammer. Even if you don't load his bullets, you'll learn everything you ever wanted to know about mono bullets. mtmuley

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I'd have NO qualms about shooting anything in the lower 48 with 120 grain Mono.

Assuming you don't have qualms with a 140grn out of a .264win mag for AK moose... would you have qualms with a 120 mono?

 

[JLS]

Assuming you don't have qualms with a 140grn out of a .264win mag for AK moose... would you have qualms with a 120 mono?

Nope. However, if your twist is fast enough, you could load these:

https://hammerbullets.com/product/264-cal-139g-sledge-hammer/

If your twist isn't fast enough, you could meet in the middle and go this route:

https://hammerbullets.com/product/264-cal-130g-sledge-hammer/

 

[cahunter805]

The books all go by weight on them rather than surface area on the bullets. I would assume therefore that the weight has a whole lot more to do with the pressure buildup than the surface area.

Mono bullets are longer in length because of the material they are made of. A lead bullet of the same weight will be shorter. Same reason the twist rate usually needs to be faster for a mono.

 

[std7mag]

Hodgdon's starting load, albeit with a Speer SP, for a 120gr bullet is 66.3gr of Retumbo.
Always start low, and work up.

Monolith bullets like a head start before they get to the lands.
Seat at least 0.050" off the lands, and give a crimp.

The 120 gr mono is about the same length as a 140 gr non mono.
So your rifles twist should, should shoot them fine.

The original Barnes X bullet was designed that the petals broke off sending them as shrapnel into the vitals.
Some gun rag writer complained about retaining weight, and it unfortunately stuck with the also unknowing public.
Most mono bullets are designed so the petals don't shear off.
Cutting Edge Bullets being the exception.

 

[mtmuley]

Cutting Edge Bullets being the exception.

Not the only exception. Hammers also. mtmuley

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Hodgdon's starting load, albeit with a Speer SP, for a 120gr bullet is 66.3gr of Retumbo.
Always start low, and work up.

Monolith bullets like a head start before they get to the lands.
Seat at least 0.050" off the lands, and give a crimp.

The 120 gr mono is about the same length as a 140 gr non mono.
So your rifles twist should, should shoot them fine.

The original Barnes X bullet was designed that the petals broke off sending them as shrapnel into the vitals.
Some gun rag writer complained about retaining weight, and it unfortunately stuck with the also unknowing public.
Most mono bullets are designed so the petals don't shear off.
Cutting Edge Bullets being the exception.

Appreciate the lands tip, my rifle likes partitions right on the lands so I would have loaded them the same way.

Fellas... seems like it might be hammer time with as many times as they are getting brought up.

 

[grandejuan]

FWIW. The E-tips are the same gilding metal alloy that is used in all Nosler bullets. All the other brands are pure copper. Gilding metal was developed in the early 20th century for cup and draw bullets because it caused less metal fouling than pure copper and less pressure. GJ

 

[std7mag]

I was not aware Hammers were like that also.
Thanks MtMuley!

And your welcome on the seating depth partt. Again, don't forget to crimp.
Simply the primer going off can dislodge the bullet. Crimp helps hold it in place for powder ignition and pressure to start building.
Thats the theory anyways. I just know people have gotten butter more consistant groups by doing so.

 

[JLS]

Iv heard the same on crimping., but I’ve never done so and have gotten sub moa with every load.

 

[PsRpOiGrRiAtM]

http://barnesbullets.com/files/2017/03/264WinchesterMagnum.pdf

Load data for .264 Win Mag. I would look into 120gr TTSX or the 127gr LRX--should be lazer flat, and I've always had great luck with Barnes bullets.

I've heard great things about Hammer bullets, and Steve seems like a very smart, genuine guy, so I'd have no problem trying some of his Hammers.

Randy sure likes E-tips, but I've never messed with them.