Copper bullet performance

[JLS]

In my experience that shot is usually heart or double lung.

I’m just going off of a picture with the leg in an odd angle. I’m not going to argue because it’s speculation.

What kind of hemorrhage was there underneath the near shoulder? Off shoulder?

If you did a gutless method you should have a pretty darned good idea of whether vitals were hit or not. Every animal I’ve shot with coppers has a massive hematoma between the shoulder(s) and ribs.

 

[MThuntr]

That's a curious issue. If the bullet went in, missed the shoulder bones but expanded I would think the elk would have been dead is seconds especially with that much trauma that close to the heart. I have heard of the tougher copper bullets failing to exit and I could see how that is possible with a bull elk & broadside shoulder shot but am still surprised the elk made it 500 yards. That would bother me and I'd probably drop down in bullet weight to gain velocity.

The last elk I shot with Etips hit almost exactly the same as yours but bullet exited and she went maybe 20 feet before tipping over. I didn't get much for expansion but that was a 570+ yard shot and likely the very edge of minimum expansion velocity.

 

[nrpate05]

That is interesting. Maybe the bullet deflected somewhere and only clipped one lung or something? I've only had good experiences with copper and have personally never recovered a bullet (although I have been with others who have). Maybe a good idea to try a lighter weight, but I think there is something else going on here.

 

[Bigjay73]

I've found blood trails with copper to be quite comparable to lead bullets.

I dont doubt that, but I can also Google dozens of stories that state the opposite. The problem is that those that use them will rave about them, those who tried them and didn't like them tell you they are garbage. Like everything else you kinda have to find the truth somewhere in the middle. Ill switch eventually, probably my next rifle purchase or barrel replacement.

 

[Jmnhunter]

I made the switch a few years ago, but during my research, the only complaint I read was about the vital hits having minimal blood trails due to the entrance and exit holes being the size of the diameter of a pencil. Those seemed to combat this by shooting in the shoulder to lock them down and causing minimal damage vs a lead bullet.

My first deer I shot with a copper bullet 270 130grain (Barnes) was a shoulder shot, pinned him down and found the perfectly mushroomed bullet on the opposite shoulder and there was minimal meat damage, I was impressed.

After that I shot 4 others in the vitals and they were all comparable with a lead bullet as far as blood trails and they only ran 20-40 yds.

 

[JLS]

I can also Google dozens of stories that state the opposite.

Google will find you lots of things, not all of them true. In my sample size, I've never had an animal 1) run very far or 2) not leave a good blood trail with a shot that is where it should be. IME, people who "make a great vital shot" and then don't find blood and/or the animal didn't make a great vital shot where it should be.

 

[Bigjay73]

Google will find you lots of things, not all of them true. In my sample size, I've never had an animal 1) run very far or 2) not leave a good blood trail with a shot that is where it should be. IME, people who "make a great vital shot" and then don't find blood and/or the animal didn't make a great vital shot where it should be.

Exactly. Honestly, this site probably provides the most unbiased info you can find, lots of experience and data based minds around here

 

[Jbotto]

Every animal I’ve shot with coppers has a massive hematoma between the shoulder(s) and ribs.

Noticed that too this year with a pronghorn doe and a whitetail doe shot with 85gr TSX from the .243. WT was at 80 yards, quartering slightly towards. Shot was slipped behind thes shoulder and exited in the opposite side where the diaphragm attaches to the ribs. PH was over 200, broadside shot through the heart. Both rounds exited. Both had that large hematoma on the entrance side between shoulder and ribs. Once you cleaned that off, all shoulder meat was intact and good with no internal bloodshot parts.

 

[406LIFE]

Google will find you lots of things, not all of them true. In my sample size, I've never had an animal 1) run very far or 2) not leave a good blood trail with a shot that is where it should be. IME, people who "make a great vital shot" and then don't find blood and/or the animal didn't make a great vital shot where it should be.

Truth.
The only penciled shots I have had were on a couple of antelope, within 150 yards. Still, the damage exiting was tremendous, and the blood trails very easy to follow.

As non-lead ammunition grows in its use, so will the sample size. The number of animals I've harvested and seen harvested with copper gives me the utmost confidence in their performance. When you couple the conservation-ethic that using copper brings, there's no question about it.

 

[winmag]

Square up an elk shoulder with a Barnes and you'll have a dead elk (as you did). Square up an elk shoulder with a Berger, for example, and your 3-legged elk may run 20 miles and may just live.

Its a trade off, traditional vs monometal.

Monometal (Barnes) allows for better penetration so offers more shot angle options, but it'll probably run a bit (like a double lung archery shot, a hundred yards max, in my experience) due to less hydrostatic shock; and you may not have a blood trail if it doesn't exit. An elk is over 2' thick, expecting an exit every time is a bit unreasonable.

Traditional (Berger) you need to avoid the shoulder, limiting shot angle options, but if you hit the ribs and reach vitals it'll likely drop right there due to the higher hydrostatic shock. I've never had a Berger exit on anything (elk, mule deer, whitetail, pronghorn...28 Nosler and 300 Win Mag).

Having said all that, I shoot Hammer bullets now and get the best of both worlds. A monometal that sheds 30% of its weight quickly after entry (high hydrostatic shock) and the remaining 70% drills onward like a traditional monometal.

 

[Guy]

Recovered a couple of bullets in 2017 from a grizzly. The smaller one is a 200 grain Nosler Partition from my 30-06, the larger one is a 225 grain Barnes TSX from the guide's 338 Win mag. There was a fair amount of shooting from both of us in a hurry, all at less than 40 yards. I knocked the bear down twice with the 30-06, my magazine was empty, and the guide handed me his 338 to finish the bear. By that time, the bear was down, but not done, at about 15 yards.

Both bullets are known for excellent performance and deep penetration, but we did recover these two while skinning the grizz. Both were recovered from just under the off-side hide.

Insert "can ya skin a grizz pilgrim" jokes here.

Guy

 

[NEWHunter]

I’ve started to make the switch to copper over the last two years. Accuracy has not been an issue. Granted it’s only been two deer and two antelope with copper, but i haven’t noticed any difference in results. Also, deer and antelope are not elk, so there is that.

@Jbotto did that pronghorn look like this? .243 @ 20 yards with 85 gr coppers? Entered just behind this shoulder on the side shown.

 

[buffybr]

I started using Barnes bullets back in 2005 in my .375 RUM for a Cape Buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe. My buffalo was a one shot kill with a 300 grain TSX. On a second African hunt with that rifle for just plains game, I used 270 grain TSX bullets. I was happy with the performance of both of those bullets on the 16 animals that I shot with them.

Bullet placement is very important regardless of what bullet you use.

When I built my .300 Weatherby in 2009 I decided to use Barnes bullets in it because I had had such good performance from Barnes bullets in my .375 RUM.

I started off using 168 grain TSX bullets, then 168 grain TTSX bullets, and now I am using 180 grain TTSX bullets. I only hunt with these bullets in my .300 Wby, and have used them on 5 international hunts and a number of hunts here at home.

I have only shot 2 bull elk with Barnes bullets, one with a 168 grain TSX and one with a 168 grain TTSX. Both shots were under 200 yards, were one shot kills, and both bulls fell dead less than 10 yards from where they were shot.

Of the 40-50 animals that I've shot with Barnes bullets, I've only recovered 8 bullets. All were the classic Barnes mushroom, but 3 had one petal broken off, presumably from hitting a large bone. We didn't look for the bullets in all animals, but I think most of them passed completely through the animals, including the 168 grain TSX from one of the bull elk. That bullet passed just behind both of his front legs, and he only took 3 steps and fell dead. Again, bullet placement is very important.

I've been able to work up sub-moa 3-shot groups with all of these Barnes bullets, which meets my criteria for hunting.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Get a RUM. mtmuley

Hunt Talk drinking game: When mtmuley suggests someone get a RUM....take a shot.

 

[nontyp]

I’m just going off of a picture with the leg in an odd angle. I’m not going to argue because it’s speculation.

What kind of hemorrhage was there underneath the near shoulder? Off shoulder?

If you did a gutless method you should have a pretty darned good idea of whether vitals were hit or not. Every animal I’ve shot with coppers has a massive hematoma between the shoulder(s) and ribs.

Lots of hemorrhage on the entrance side. vitals were definitely hit. Looked like a heart shot, but hard to say for sure because i did gutless. He died quickly by the looks of things, but he was able to cover a little bit of distance in his final moments. He had a couple inches of snow piled on him by morning, so it didn’t appear that he lived very long after the shot. there seemed to be a little bit of hemorrhage on the far side, but seemed to be more towards the guts. no damage on the far shoulder at all. I’m thinking the bullet must’ve took a weird turn on contact.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Hunt Talk drinking game: When mtmuley suggests someone get a RUM....take a shot.

Wait you haven't been playing?

 

[Dougfirtree]

Wait you haven't been playing?

Well, no, but maybe I should go back through some old threads now and catch up!

 

[GlockZ]

I use Barnes TTSX exclusively in 4 different calibers, 243, 270, 30-06 & 300WM. It’s 50/50 whether or not they pass through or end up lodged on the opposite side, either way they are devastating. Dead is dead.

 

[mtmuley]

Hunt Talk drinking game: When mtmuley suggests someone get a RUM....take a shot.

You might not even get a buzz. I don't reccomend the RUM in a serious manner hardly ever. It is a wicked elk killer though. Actually been packing the .06 and 166 Hammers for mountain whitetail these days. mtmuley

 

[devon deer]

Ok finally, saw the Fallow buck first, he was bedded but suspected something, he stood up broadside 100 yards, he ran about 50 and dropped down dead, Fallow doe went to investigate, same distance but dropped on the spot. 243 80 grain copper
I think the first shot on the buck clipped a twig, bullet went off at an angle, but went through the lungs and exited, the doe was perfect, massive damage to both lungs, too be honest there wasn't much expansion, and the blood trail was negligible on the buck, but as for killing power they did the job
Cheers
Richard