Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission Meeting - January 15 - 16, 2020

[Deleted member 28227]

95% of hunters use the points system.

That's a bizarrely specific and I think probably misleading statistic
Let's see I apply for MSG every year, and 2 years ago I applied for a hunt that was 75% draw for 0 points missed it, got a second choice tag and a pref point... so yeah I guess I "use the point system".

If the discussion is to increase wildlife populations, shouldn't we start talking about reducing cow elk tags in late seasons where you kill two with one shot? or the PLO tags with a season from Sept to January?

Heck yeah we should, I'm glad those are limited seaons where CPW can control the number of tags issued. I think it's definitely time to cut some tags.

As far as healthy habitats and ecosystems, sounds like your buying into wolf intro. I don't. We may find predators are having a large impact on ungulates and the reason for decline in the SW. We also can't control drought, and the SW has had drought. We also have nearly 6 million people headed to 7 million. Personally, I am a multiple use guy, love my gas fed RZR so wild places should be for all, not just horsebackers...

Wolves are a species that was until recently were present on the landscape, hunters have taken their places as the primary predator of elk and deer, and where allowed (outside national parks, outside of private land that doesn't allow any hunting) we do a fine job at maintaining healthy herd numbers. The american people decided that protecting species is important hence the ESA. There are wolves in CO, they fall under federal management under the ESA. I'm neutral on the topic, in general though extremely worried about wolves effect on CPW budget via license dollars... that said I would love to see grizzlies in Rocky Mountain

Agreed there are a multitude of factors that effect herds, which is why it's important for CPW to be able to control hunter numbers, it's one of the few variables in the equation they can manipulate.

I'm a multi use person as well, though to me that means providing places for people to do various activities, not that we need to have all actives everywhere. Some user groups dramatically effect a resource and therefore some actives need to be restricted in some areas.

"Recreational development is a job not of building roads into the lovely country, but of building receptivity into the still unlovely human mind." -Leopold

million. Personally, I am a multiple use guy, love my gas fed RZR so wild places should be for all, not just horsebackers, and 20 somethings with young knees.

Honestly, I'm probably not going to visit half the wilderness areas in the US in my lifetime... definitely won't get to visit even 10% of the national parks in the world, I'm still glad they exist.

“I am glad I will not be young in a future without wilderness.” -Leopold

Lastly, I never represented my own personal opinions while on the CBA board. I also do not hunt OTC elk, hunter density is high but I could always walk another mile and keep looking. I am off the board now, someone else should step up to represent the majority of member opinions. Influencing state government or anyone else for that matter is really discouraging, rarely successful, and time consuming.

THanks for the discussion, back to work for me.

I'm sure a lot, or even most of that work goes unsung, I appreciate you putting in the hours. I may disagree with you on somethings, but I fully acknowledge that we wouldn't be getting to have these conversations if you and people like you hadn't put in a ton of work.

I sincerely mean this, thank you for the time you gave.

 

[Deleted member 39961]

I'll try not to repeat what Willm hasn't already covered.

The selfish ones are the guys that want fewer people, at someone elses expense.

As someone that has followed CBA's position on the SW issue from the start, the overwhelming sentiment is entitlement to the status quo. Various justifications were used along the way -- primarily based on CBA member surveys -- but irreducibly, the position was always the retention of OTC opportunity for bull elk despite warnings from "millenial BHA members", CPW staff biological white paper statements, and general concern of hunters (admittedly, anecdotal in nature). In response to this body of evidence, some of us said "hey, maybe we should look at changing the archery system to see if that moves the needle." That's not selfish, it's a prudent response to devise a solution that maintains the resource for future generations. I don't think I need to remind you that hunting is not a right, its a privilege, so there is no "expense" to which you are owed.

Who of the 6316 bowhunters, with even 1 point will apply as a first choice for the newly limited SW units? I have talked to a guy with 4, and a guy with two, neither will apply as a first choice. 95% of hunters use the points system.

I can't wait to burn my points. How come you didn't mention me? Do you think there might be others? Don't give me examples and tell me it's the rule.

As far as healthy habitats and ecosystems, sounds like your buying into wolf intro. I don't. We may find predators are having a large impact on ungulates and the reason for decline in the SW. We also can't control drought, and the SW has had drought. We also have nearly 6 million people headed to 7 million. Personally, I am a multiple use guy, love my gas fed RZR so wild places should be for all, not just horsebackers, and 20 somethings with young knees.

This is a mischaracterization of Willm's post(s). If you don't have healthy habitat, you don't have good elk herds. That's basic. Willm made no mention of predators. And yes, predators probably have some impact on elk calves in the SW, but the causal factor in a resource condition does not control the response in public land management. If you spend some more time in Resource Management Plans across the west, this is the rule. For example, if a fire burns sage-grouse habitat, do you think the livestock grazers get to graze it the following season?

Your last statement is truly misguided and probably stems from the same philosophy that formed CBA's position on OTC opportunity. Eventually we all reach a time when our knees give out. When mine do, I won't expect the world to give me more. Just like I don't expect to hunt OTC every year until the elk are gone. But somehow I'm the entitled BHA millennial?

CPW says we have 287,000 elk statewide. There are 43,000 elk in the 4 DAU's of which ~200 cows get taken by archers at a ~3% success rate, while late rifle cow hunters have as high as a 54% success rate. We have 35,000 statewide OTC bowhunters, and 6316 hunt in the 4 DAU's. CBA surveys say at least 30% of them will move when you lose either sex tags. In E-16, 67% of the bowhunters left when they switched - 1000 OTC bowhunters went into some one elses OTC area.

Personally, I think 3,000 hunters will vacate year one so hunter density just got worse for MOST of the the OTC archers

Two words, mandatory reporting. We don't have it. How'd you come up with these numbers?

 

[Dsnow9]

Definitely need the mandatory reporting!

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I've never got a good answer of why archery gets 30 days to hunt? I use a primitive muzzleloader and get 9 days. Some bowhunters with compounds are taking longer shots than me.

Also, if the game is not supposed to see blaze orange. Why don't bow hunters need to wear it? They're hunting alongside of muzzleloader and rifle hunters. I won't mention they also get either sex tags. Well, I guess I did.

Then they complain that muzzleloaders are hunting in their season. I hunt with a longbow sometimes but I do it in rifle season and don't complain.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Also, if the game is not supposed to see blaze orange. Why don't bow hunters need to wear it? They're hunting alongside of muzzleloader and rifle hunters.

Then they complain that muzzleloaders are hunting in their season. I hunt with a longbow sometimes but I do it in rifle season and don't complain.

I believe anyone who "holds" a rifle tag has to wear it... so if you are bow hunting rifle season you have to wear blaze. But a duck hunter doesn't have to wear blaze during the parts of the season the overlap big game season, nor does a grouse hunter. If drew a muzzy tag, and then hunted with a bow you would need to wear blaze.

Logically it doesn't make a lot of sense, but the rule has to do with what is printed on your tag.

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I know I wore it in rifle season. I'm talking about not having to wear it in bow season.

I'd wear it in any season. I don't like getting shot.

btw You can't use a muzzy in bow season.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I know I wore it in rifle season. I'm talking about not having to wear it in bow season.
I'd wear it in any season. I don't like getting shot.
btw You can't use a muzzy in bow season.

You are missing my point... the last letter of you tag is what defines whether you have to wear blaze. A does not M or R does.

Example, these two hunt codes overlap.
E-E-012-O1-A (A bow hunter with this tag does not have to wear blaze)
E-E-012-O1-M (A person choosing to use a bow to hunt this tag does have to wear blaze)

So in effect there is a specific instance were someone hunting with a bow, when a bow season is running would have to wear blaze.

 

[COEngineer]

I've never got a good answer of why archery gets 30 days to hunt?

It has to do with efficacy. Archery hunters average success rate is ~11%, rifle hunters average success rate is 20-25%. So, even though the archery season is 5 or 6 times as long as any rifle season, the success rate is about half.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It has to do with efficacy. Archery hunters average success rate is ~11%, rifle hunters average success rate is 20-25%. So, even though the archery season is 5 or 6 times as long as any rifle season, the success rate is about half.

Per the states harvest statistics for 2018 the average Rifle hunter hunts 4.5 days in CO and the average archery hunter hunts 7 days. One could argue that split seasons archery seasons... like rifle make sense.

I personally prefer the one longer season, but CO split the rifle seasons because they were too crowded so if people think the Archery season is too crowded... that is a logical step.

 

[Zach]

@grasshopper what is CBA's resident membership total, and what is percent of that is 474?
Slow over at Bowsite?

 

[Muley_Stalker]

It has to do with efficacy. Archery hunters average success rate is ~11%, rifle hunters average success rate is 20-25%. So, even though the archery season is 5 or 6 times as long as any rifle season, the success rate is about half.

What is muzzleloader?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

What is muzzleloader?

2018, 20% Bulls 13% Cows

The rifle stats are somewhat BS because the private land tags get thrown in there in the average.

PLO rifle tags are 44% Second 15% Third 18%

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I didn't think muzzy was that high. Must be those inlines taking long shots. Make it a real primitive season and I bet those numbers will go down.

 

[Mudranger1]

2018, 20% Bulls 13% Cows

The rifle stats are somewhat BS because the private land tags get thrown in there in the average.

PLO rifle tags are 44% Second 15% Third 18%

Do they not lump the archery and muzzleloader tags in the stats?

 

[Mudranger1]

I didn't think muzzy was that high. Must be those inlines taking long shots. Make it a real primitive season and I bet those numbers will go down.

I could have killed an elk almost every year with any kind of muzzleloader. I've never killed an archery elk. My fault but still lol

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Do they not lump the archery and muzzleloader tags in the stats?

Nope it’s all broken down to the season and unit level. Note since we don’t have mandatory reporting you can’t trust unit level data. Also CPW needs to learn the difference between 0 and null.

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I could have killed an elk almost every year with any kind of muzzleloader. I've never killed an archery elk. My fault but still lol

Why do you think the muzzy is easier? Do you call? Both tags are in the rut.

 

[Mudranger1]

Nope it’s all broken down to the season and unit level. Note since we don’t have mandatory reporting you can’t trust unit level data. Also CPW needs to learn the difference between 0 and null.

I'm confused why you cant trust unit based data if you can trust a wider based ? Data. I think that's what you are saying. And PLO are all based on a single unit whether they are unit wide or actual private land tags

 

[Mudranger1]

Why do you think the muzzy is easier? Do you call? Both tags are in the rut.

I do call and it's a hell of a lot easier to shoot something than it is to draw a bow and all the other components to shooting with a bow

 

[Muley_Stalker]

I do call and it's a hell of a lot easier to shoot something than it is to draw a bow and all the other components to shooting with a bow

Maybe, but I can't hold my gun shouldered as long as a compound shooter can hold it. I also hunt old school and never call. I love to sneak in. So, not only do I have to shoulder the gun but I have to sneak in too. I can't move if the elk, bear, or deer are looking at me. A bow is no different. I have some buddies who hunt the same way. We all seem to enjoy it. I find it pretty rewarding.