HighDesertSage
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You should change your name....
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Colorado lead ammunition ban
- Thread starter Oak
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You should change your name....
RobG
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I'm betting an all out lead ban would really hurt practice shooting, especially with the .22 I send my son off in the woods with. I'd hate to see that happen, however, the trend is to get lead out of the environment and if you are plinking gophers and animals eat them it isn't a good thing.
I've given up lead for big game because I feed so much of it to my kids. Lead has been shown to get in the meat even a fair distance from the impact. A flyfishing friend - who certainly isn't anti-hunting - published a paper showing elevated levels of blood in First Nation people hunting ducks with lead shot. It follows that you are getting lead from upland game hunting with lead shot.
I might support a ban on using it for hunting on public lands, but I hesitate to support an all out-ban because I don't want to spend $2/shot at the range, nor break the bank when shooting the .22. The all-out ban angle is mostly the anti-hunting/anti-gun crowd IMO.
I've given up lead for big game because I feed so much of it to my kids. Lead has been shown to get in the meat even a fair distance from the impact. A flyfishing friend - who certainly isn't anti-hunting - published a paper showing elevated levels of blood in First Nation people hunting ducks with lead shot. It follows that you are getting lead from upland game hunting with lead shot.
I might support a ban on using it for hunting on public lands, but I hesitate to support an all out-ban because I don't want to spend $2/shot at the range, nor break the bank when shooting the .22. The all-out ban angle is mostly the anti-hunting/anti-gun crowd IMO.
jryoung
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Well Duke Energy killed 14 golden eagles and 149 other birds over a four year period and it cost them $1M in fines and who knows what other costs to change operations, legal fees, and PR. There's plenty of scrutiny on solar concentrating farms like Ivanpah as well.
I came across this article the other day regarding the condors in CA that is one of the best I have seen. In general, when it comes to someone in the CA media (print or online) writing about condors it is usually a pretty terrible article heavy on slant. This article covers all issues facing the condor, lead poisoning, micro-trash and DDT. It highlights how they are hoping/pushing to get the birds closer to the sea to find better food sources. It also discusses how the VWS has stepped up and spent money ($60k worth) on getting folks to convert to copper. Having had discussions with Kelly Sorenson at the VWS it became very clear to me that they have no desire to end hunting. In fact I offered to donate some of my factory copper ammunition to the cause as I began reloading. He said they couldn't put it in their give-away program, but on of their biologists shot a 7RM and could use it to hunt boar/deer for feeding. As a hunter, what more can you ask for than when a group like the VWS asks you to change, and they pony up the funds to help you. This is what was so wrong with the ban originally in CA, it was a blanket approach with no olive branch or alternatives or funding. When Arizona did the same in their condor range their Fish and Game department offered ammunition and an alternative (carrying the carcass out).
I think many of the all out ban folks are just riding the wave of the good work a lot of groups are doing and of course they're twisting facts and demagoging hunters which quickly turns the conversation to something more akin to a toddler tantrum.
The one missing piece for me that I can't solve for, which has been highlighted by my increased understanding of the very high sensitivity from raptors (see pointers post above) is the elimination of potential lead poisoning outside of lead bullets. I know there have been studies done to match the isotopes of the lead in condors to the isotopes in lead bullets, but I can't find specifically where those isotopes were matched/eliminated to other sources of lead in the environment.
http://www.montereycountyweekly.com...cle_1d1a046c-54a5-11e4-bb92-0017a43b2370.html
belly-deep
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The unanswered question is, do we not have enough raptors?
I don't mind a little collateral damage if the numbers are fine.
I don't mind a little collateral damage if the numbers are fine.
RobG
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Great, now raptors are getting cooked. And we can't even eat them. Because they are full of lead
. I've seen less lethal ways to do concentrated solar so it is a good thing. (On the other hand one proposal is to have these mirrors in space since the sun is so much stronger there. Then the death ray would be focused to a collector on earth. What could possibly go wrong with that?)
Photovoltaics have come a long way so, like wind, these bird deaths are a blip in the bigger picture as they will go away as improvements are made. Using renewables and getting the lead out of everyone's food chain has a lot of proven benefits and should be given more serious consideration instead of excuses not to use. In the mean time, I guess I'll be packing my dead gophers out.
jryoung
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With or without load cells?
Copper is on a 3 year slide...maybe it's time to invest? Since I'm a numbers/business guy I'm interested in seeing the market adapt to increasing demand for copper. The ammo business is an interesting one, and it doesn't seem as if the big makers have added capacity.
I'm wondering if more boutique makers can enter the market...though items like 22LR are such razor thin margins it probably doesn't make sense to expand capacity.
With or without load cells?
Copper is on a 3 year slide...maybe it's time to invest? Since I'm a numbers/business guy I'm interested in seeing the market adapt to increasing demand for copper. The ammo business is an interesting one, and it doesn't seem as if the big makers have added capacity.
I'm wondering if more boutique makers can enter the market...though items like 22LR are such razor thin margins it probably doesn't make sense to expand capacity.
IIRC, manufacturers have added shifts and a few have expanded capacity. Most seem to be reluctant too because they feel that we're in an ammo bubble, as opposed to a new market that can sustain this level of demand.
If it is a bubble, it's been a 6 year long one. At some point, the bubble becomes the new normal, right?
RobG
Well-known member
Leaded or unleaded?
I'll just come out and say it since no one else will. The raptors and vultures are not endangered so WHO CARES? This really is about an anti-hunting agenda. First it was a ban on lead shot now they want to ban lead hunting bullets, whats next?
I can't resolve myself to ethically believe that we shouldn't care about poisoning other critters. Just seems rather selfish.
belly-deep
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Ben, I believe our mere existence poisons nearly all critters to some extent.
TheJason
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Sure it does. But, my conscience also tells me to mitigate that the best that I can. How can we throw stones at the Wilks' for their fence that will kill some elk calves then say "who cares" about our affects on raptors?
noharleyyet
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Some wait...some are proactive..shirts ans skins issue I suppose.
belly-deep
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No doubt.
But I think the question is more of to what extent should we go to in efforts to mitigate?
As long as the numbers are not dwindling, I'm not willing to give up lead bullets.
The article says "hunters" but I think recreational shooters would have to be logically included for the ban to have any real effect. I'd hate to see that happen, as I think it would really cripple the shooting community.
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jryoung
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I don't think it needs to go to recreational shooters, even in CA they haven't attempted that (yet). I would seem as it is those that are killing critters one way or another with lead that are causing the continued lead poisoning to condors. CA DFW has noted very high compliance rates among hunters, though I suspect that is pretty much limited to big game.
The shooting community has shown in the last 6 years a vast majority of them are willing exorbitant amounts of money for ammunition. We have no idea what the market response will be to a significant shift in demand due to regulation. I'll be good money though that with a policy shift driving an increase in demand Nosler, Hornady, Freedom Group, ATK or all of the above will step up and expand capacity.
There aren't many industries where prices increase with expanded manufacturing capacity...the learning curve/experience curve analysis has been proven true since first developed aeronautics industry in the 30's.
Zach
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You gonna start walking everywhere?
I had the oil changed in my truck in July. After my pronghorn hunt, I still have over 2,000 miles before I need to change it again.
So, my impact is being minimized.
Well said, JLS.
I keep telling my wife that not showering and just going Liver -eating Johnson is for the environment, but she keeps kicking me out to the doghouse until I do a little man-scaping.
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