Colorado Elk Harvest falls short again......

[Oak]

I don't imagine that you'll ever see them raise it to a 5-pt minimum. You'd have elk shot and left all over the place. That's one(of several) reason they did away with the point restriction on deer. Guys were "ground checking" them. Get this straight...a hunter should ALWAYS know what he's shooting at, I'm not condoning anything. BUT, the way the law is now, if a bull is a branch antlered bull (not a spike with forks) it's almost positively a legal bull. It'll have 4 points on a side OR a 5-inch brow tine. Much less chance for a guy to screw up. That's why they have that rule, Schmalts. As Todd said, a bull with a 5 inch brow tine will almost always have 4 points on an antler.

I don't think a 2 1/2 year old bull is much smarter than a 1 1/2 year old one. I think the main reason they implemented the point restriction was to increase bull-cow ratios. I'm not positive about that, but it makes sense. It basically raised by one year the age at which most bulls get whacked. So you've got a better post-hunt bull-cow ratio because all those spikes made it. Then you've got more bulls to do the breeding the next fall, even if they are raghorns.

I think the 4-point minimum is a good deal. I also think it IS one reason why we've got so many elk now, not because there's more bulls, but because there's more bulls to breed the cows in the fall. Besides, just think how the non-residents would scream if they had to pay $470 to whack a spike!

Oak

 

[Oak]

Here's an idea. Make all hunters kill a cow before they kill a bull. Lower the price of those non-res. cow tags to about $100. If someone doesn't want two elk in one year, they kill a cow one year and are eligible to kill a bull the next year.

One problem with this is that all cows would have to be checked, to confirm a filled cow license. Who knows...any other ideas?

Oak

 

[Washington Hunter]

Seems to me the 4 point minimum is fair, and I agree with both Deerslayer and Colorado Oak's reasoning. I really believe if you want to have more bulls and bigger bulls, the only way to do that is to reduce the number of bulls killed, which means permit-only elk hunting for the entire state of Colorado (kind of like Nevada, and I think Arizona is that way too, isn't it?) And of course kill more cows. But I don't think Colorado wants to manage for quality, they want to manage for quantity (and there's nothing wrong with that.) You just can't have both quality and quantity.

 

[schmalts]

dont know if i buy what you said Oak, are there raghorns dead all over the draw units because they got shot and had a bad case of ground shrinkage? Yea there are a idiots out there but i dont know if it would be as bad as you think. Maybe i'm wrong but i have a little more faith in some of the hunters.
maybe a few units should just go to 5pt instead, would that be a fair way to try it?
I just feel colorado with all the elk they have could do something with the quality a little and be the ass kicking elk state if it wanted. They could have the best of both worlds

 

[Oak]

No, there isn't that problem in the draw units. My point was that it's sometimes hard to tell if a bull is a 4-pt or a 5-pt. It's not right to shoot unless you know, but it's a FACT that a hell of a lot of 2-pt muleys were being shot and left when we had a point restriction on deer. The first year of point restrictions on deer was the first year it was legal for me to hunt big game. I found five 2-pt. muleys shot and left in 6 days of hunting. What I was talking about is guys accidently shooting an illegal animal and leaving it. There's no point restrictions in most trophy units in the state, so what you're talking about is a guy shooting a legal animal and leaving it. I understand your point...not disagreeing...just pointing out why I don't think the state is going to raise the point minimum. Maybe we should only let guys buy a bull tag every other year, and make those tags either-sex. I don't know...come up with a different plan than increasing the point minimum and I'll see if I like it.

Oak

 

[Boman]

schmalts,

I'd love to agree with you and say lets give hunters more credit but I can't.. I also found 3 dead 2x2 bucks when that point restriction was started..I thought it was crazy that people just start blasting away.. I like the setup the way it is..I don't think colorado will ever manage their elk like an Arizona or utah will..good topic though

 

[Deerslayer]

And if we did manage Co the way Arizona and Nevada does, then you would really hear the bitching! "Why can't I hunt there like I have for 30 years!" "It ain't fair we can't buy over the counter no more!" "PLEASE< OH PLEASE! Now we don't think $480 is such a bad price for bulls!"

There are enough states that tightly limit their elk hunting this creating the "Holy Grail" of the sport, but I hope Colorado NEVER heads in that direction. I am glad we have a hunter friendly state where anyone that chooses can spur of the moment come out and chase Wapiti. We have trophy units in this state.....just save you 10-14 points and your in. But in the mean time, just roll into a mom and pop store and buy you a bull tag, and get after it!

 

[danr55]

DS, I believe that the reason that Nevada and Arizona controls thier hunting as stringently as they do is because of water.

There is limited water available and limited game. If we opend the state to everyone who wanted to hunt, we would be out of game in a matter of a couple of years. As it is, the natural ebb and flow of the mule deer population is causing a large lack of huntable deer down here.

Besides, what makes you think that that same whining and gnashing on teeth you describe isn't heard in arizona every year when the drawing results come out? That sounds a lot like me when I review the results...

 

[Shaky]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Washington Hunter:
650 yards? Wow! For shooting an elk that far I think you might want to consider a 338 Ultra Mag or a 30-378 Weatherby. Even then I think it would be too far. 400 yards is do-able, 450 yards MAYBE, but I'd save the 650 yard shots to shooting at paper, not live animals, especially an animal the size of an elk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I practice a LOT to 650 yards, off my swivel bench, which I use while hunting. I would have no problem shooting an elk using my 300 win mag and 159gr EXP Groove Bullets at 3450 FPS. I have little doubt that the 159gr EXP Groove Bullet would go all the way through at 650 yards.

The ultra mags would be flatter shooting and provide additional energy, no doubt, but I don't own any.

Have a good one,

Don

 

[Steve]

Well it has been quite a while since I posted, but I check in from time to time, so I would like to put in my opinion of Colorado's tag system. Suits me fine, but what I really like about it is the youth tags. My son (my $'s) can buy an out of state tag for $100, and I dont even have to buy one if I dont want to. Kids from 12-15 can do this. This is going to be an annual trip for ol dad, till he finds out about girls (my son that is). He will be 14 this year and for the past 2 years I have taken him out of school for a week and gone huntin. He learns more about life in that week than he ever could in school. He has already harvested 2 bulls (for $200) and he will harvest another 2 before he turns 16. Then he pays adult prices. We have 99.5% success in our camp on public land. The quality of the bulls are yet to be desired. I call them junk heads. 4x4, 5x5, an occasional 6x6, but a few years ago I got a 7x7. not giant, but what do you expect on public land in Colorado.

Shaky--long range shootin? You bet! Your 300 mag will go farther than that. My son shot his 2 bulls at 747 and 851 yards. He has also shot a whitetail at 704. I have the long shot on the bull on video, pretty neat. My shortest shot where we hunt is 615 yards on out to 1000+. We use a 300 win mag 165gr nosler bt at 3400 fps, and a 338/378 wby 300gr sierra mk's at 3000fps. Leupold and Nightforce scopes and a military laser rangefinder plus or minus 5 meters out to 12 miles.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 03-06-2003 10:34: Message edited by: Steve ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

Shaky, well I suppose if you practice enough 650 yards wouldn't be totally unrealistic. I don't doubt the rifle's capability of killing an elk that far. My only problem is that very few people have any business attempting a shot at an animal that far away. And I don't see what the fun is in picking elk off that far away. For your average hunter, 300 yards is a very long shot.

Steve, can't you teach your kid to hunt? Shooting elk half a mile away is not really hunting. More like sniping.

 

[Delw]

Washington Hunter for your average Shooter 300 yards is a long way... But if you shoot as much as we do, 300 yards is like hitting them with a baseball bat....

650 plus I would take it if the circumstance were right, and the shot was right.

Most average hunters shoot about 20-50 rounds a year and thats it. the average long range shooter shoots over 5000 rounds a year. if he is in good P-dog counry it can go alot more than that. Dan and I used to shoot hundreds if not 1000's per weekend shooting p-dogs. me and a few buddies used to shoot them every weekend rangeing from .223- 300 win mags and even a 50bmg once in a while... When the p-dog population was very high and the ranchers and game and fish wanted them eraticated we used to bring reloaders and set them up in the motel rooms... Shoot all day load all night, we did this for 3 days a week for a long long time, never missing a weekend....


Delw

 

[danr55]

Those were the days Del.. When we used to park along old Route 66 and spend an entire day just sniping puppies.. Sometimes there would be so many dog shooters it looked like a damn parking lot...

WH, I don't know where you hunt, but here in Arizona, there are lots of places where it's impossible to take a shorter shot than about 400 yards. Lots of canyons and PJ country. You can get to within a few yards of the critters, but then you can't see them. So you have to shoot across a canyon or a bowl and catch them on the other side. Sometimes that's not necessary. The last elk I killed in Arizona, I shot from about 40 yards. The one before that about 450 yards. Just depends on the country..

 

[Steve]

WH, What is your defination of hunting? Is calling a coyote in to 10 yards and shooting it with a shotgun hunting? How about sneaking around the woods and taking a limit of squirrels, or sitting behind a dozen duck decoys on a creek bank waiting in the freezing rain for a shot at a lone mallard, or sitting for hours in a tree stand with hopes of a shooting a giant buck that will never come, or crawling hundreds of yards to sneak up on a bedded buck out in the prairie and make a great shot at 120 yards, or waiting for hours for a giant elk to appear from over the horizen, and wait patiently for him to get in range only to find out he is barely legal. Or on passing up 2 legal bulls in the same day (on public land) to try to get a bigger one. And making a single shot at 800+ yards, which is forever caught on video. Then ride down 1/2 mile of pure steepness on a horse to help ole dad cut up, load, retrieve the elk, and back up the same trail, with a smile. My son, 13 years old, straight A's, baseball and apple pie lovin all american kid, has done all these things, and I have been there, as a dad, to enjoy every bit of success and failures with him. So WH, I will continue to raise him the way I am doing, but I have a question, where do you think he crossed the line and not become a hunter?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Steve, sorry but I don't understand your question. What does this mean:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>where do you think he crossed the line and not become a hunter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you mind rewording that so I can make some sense out of it, please?

As far as shooting elk at 800 yards, I think 99% of hunters would agree with me when I say that that is way too far for a responsible person to be taking a shot at an elk. I don't care what kind of rifle or scope you are using. I would guess that even Dan and Delw would agree. Apparently they are both very experienced with long range shooting yet they still limit their shots to 650 yards. I just think that the chance of wounding an elk that far away is too great to risk a shot. So maybe you are confident you can make a good shot 6 out of 10 times, or 8 out of 10. What about the shot that hits that big bull in the guts, because of a little bit of wind that you didn't know about from your position a half mile away? Just something to think about. I'm sure what I say won't make any difference in what you do or what you are teaching your son to do. But maybe that first animal that your son gutshoots and gets away will change your son's opinion on those half-mile shots (if he has any respect for wildlife at all.)