Colorado 2nd Draw?

[Deleted member 28227]

Deer tags by how many points they took to draw.

 

[TheHeadTurkey]

Alright.... here is the deal, I am a youth hunter. Which tags are the best?

 

[SC Living Outdoors]

Alright.... here is the deal, I am a youth hunter. Which tags are the best?

All the cow muzzleloader tags are pretty solid hunts.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Dude, people actually do take their kids hunting…it’s not some grand “Dad’s secret tag conspiracy”. I see the argument that it does not help clear out preference points, but it’s a fraction of the overall % of tags. It may not be the best system but I’ll manage to deal with the guilt if my kids happen to draw some great tags.

Couple things.
I don't think anyone is actually not taking their kids hunting.
Don't hate the player hate the game, everyone should absolutely take advantage of the opportunities available.
I also think the re-issue process is trash, I've also pulled a number of tags from that loophole.
So to that end don't feel guilty at all.

Now in terms of a stable system that manages opportunity this is getting ridiculous. Thread after thread about point creep, CPW holding stakeholder meetings about these issues... and then we have a system that leaks points like a sieve.

Specific example:





This year this unit has 6 tags on the list, last I counted 12 returned, the year before 18 return.

That's a huge portion of the total tags. Tons of people are hunting this tags with 0 point cost. Further while there is a 35% NR cap during the draw there isn't a cap during the secondary draw or the reissue process. So it's possible way over 35% of the tags are going to NR.


Now to the point about the youth tags, 52 people with points applied for this unit in the main draw yet all the tags will go to kids who didn't apply for 0 points, (I guess it's possible 3 of the kids who applied and didn't draw with try again)?

How is that 1. fair 2. make any sense given all the point creep issues.

Sure some of these applicants might have gotten a second choice tag, but I bet a lot of them didn't and will send in more money to CPW crossing their fingers in what is a worthless application.

Later in the year, mark my words, more of these tags will hit the list, and will be snatched up for no points, by folks who didn't originally apply to hunt that unit.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Alright.... here is the deal, I am a youth hunter. Which tags are the best?

I just posted the list enjoy

 

[RyGuy]

Now to the point about the youth tags, 52 people with points applied for this unit in the main draw yet all the tags will go to kids who didn't apply for 0 points, (I guess it's possible 3 of the kids who applied and didn't draw with try again)?

How is that 1. fair 2. make any sense given all the point creep issues.

Sure some of these applicants might have gotten a second choice tag, but I bet a lot of them didn't and will send in more money to CPW crossing their fingers in what is a worthless application.

If you don’t like the secondary draw so much, then take your $7 and go buy a single gallon of gas, or a beer like @winmag said .
These tags were drawn by adults with more points than most youth can save up for to hunt these units, then they were returned, then they were offered to the next hunter in line at the max point level, THEN they finally are offered to youth hunters(via the 2nd draw).
I agree that there should be consequences to turning back tags, but quit shaking your fist at the kids on your lawn.
This could be a youth hunters only chance at hunting one of these good units with the way that point creep is going. And let’s be honest, how many youth hunters are really killing monster bucks and bulls? Between school, sports, friends and the work schedules of their hunting mentors I doubt many teens are hiking the hills for weeks on end. And in my experience, inexperienced hunters are glad to kill any animal. Plus they often require more opportunities at plentiful game before everything lines up and they have a shot.
Kids should have preference in the secondary draw.

 

[TrumpkinTheDwarf]

If you don’t like the secondary draw so much, then take your $7 and go buy a single gallon of gas, or a beer like @winmag said .
These tags were drawn by adults with more points than most youth can save up for to hunt these units, then they were returned, then they were offered to the next hunter in line at the max point level, THEN they finally are offered to youth hunters(via the 2nd draw).
I agree that there should be consequences to turning back tags, but quit shaking your fist at the kids on your lawn.
This could be a youth hunters only chance at hunting one of these good units with the way that point creep is going. And let’s be honest, how many youth hunters are really killing monster bucks and bulls? Between school, sports, friends and the work schedules of their hunting mentors I doubt many teens are hiking the hills for weeks on end. And in my experience, inexperienced hunters are glad to kill any animal. Plus they often require more opportunities at plentiful game before everything lines up and they have a shot.
Kids should have preference in the secondary draw.

So, you're saying the kids that care less, and will put less into a hunt, should draw the tags, *because* they won't hunt it hard? Not sure I follow that logic.

 

[RyGuy]

So, you're saying the kids that care less, and will put less into a hunt, should draw the tags, *because* they won't hunt it hard? Not sure I follow that logic.

What I meant was that these kids aren’t out there stealing your trophy deer and elk. They’re lucky to be going hunting at all. They will have an experience of a lifetime and most likely have a shorter window to harvest an animal.

 

[Jdp010]

Deer tags by how many points they took to draw.
View attachment 227100

Beautiful! Thank you for pulling out the primo DM buck tags from the master list. I missed a few in my first review of the list. Mind sharing the same for EE/EM bull elk tags?

I will now apply BOTH of my NR children for the most premium tags on that list for just a $9.17 lottery charge. And if they draw, they cut the line ahead of many RES youth in addition to every adult.

And they get to keep their existing points. Wow, CPW - way to nuke an orderly queue.

I see folks implying that CPW went to the next person in line first - and that person said no. But these are all tags that require < 5 PP for RES, so these tags are going to straight to NR & RES youth, correct? (I.e., the ENTIRE line is bypassed even though CPW has ~5 months they could have used to find the next person who assembled in an orderly line).

 

[RyGuy]

Beautiful! Thank you for pulling out the primo DM buck tags from the master list. I missed a few in my first review of the list. Mind sharing the same for EE/EM bull elk tags?

I will now apply BOTH of my NR children for the most premium tags on that list for just a $9.17 lottery charge. And if they draw, they cut the line ahead of many RES youth in addition to every adult.

And they get to keep their existing points. Wow, CPW - way to nuke an orderly queue.

I see folks implying that CPW went to the next person in line first - and that person said no. But these are all tags that require < 5 PP for RES, so these tags are going to straight to NR & RES youth, correct? (I.e., the ENTIRE line is bypassed even though CPW has ~5 months they could have used to find the next person who assembled in an orderly line).

Yes you are correct. For the low point hunts they go straight to the secondary draw.
I’m in agreement that the system is flawed and CPW does many things poorly. But giving youth more opportunities to hunt is not one of them IMO.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Yes you are correct. For the low point hunts they go straight to the secondary draw.
I’m in agreement that the system is flawed and CPW does many things poorly. But giving youth more opportunities to hunt is not one of them IMO.

Are youth restricted from the regular draw or reissue process? Would they not have the opportunity if the secondary draw was open to everyone?

Why exactly do kids need 260, 2+ pref point deer tags?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

then they were offered to the next hunter in line at the max point level, THEN they finally are offered to youth hunters(via the 2nd draw).

Nope only 5+ resident points, are offered to the next person in line. These tags all go straight to the list.

This could be a youth hunters only chance at hunting one of these good units with the way that point creep is going. And let’s be honest, how many youth hunters are really killing monster bucks and bulls? Between school, sports, friends and the work schedules of their hunting mentors I doubt many teens are hiking the hills for weeks on end. And in my experience, inexperienced hunters are glad to kill any animal. Plus they often require more opportunities at plentiful game before everything lines up and they have a shot.
Kids should have preference in the secondary draw.

I hope all the parents on the forum are applying and getting out there with their kids, sincerely. My nephew is up to bat next year, and I'd like to take him on his first backpack hunt... would be super cool.

That does not negate the fact that this is an unfair and poorly thought out system.

It's the same crap that is going on in Montana, "F-it I got my missouri breaks permit, I mean so did half of bozeman, but whatever I can see how this personally benefits me so, meh."

 

[RyGuy]

@wllm I agree with you on many things you’re saying here. And I think you bring up a lot of good points. I just think, that of all of the things to get worked up about, the fact that kids get preference on mid-low range tags (tags that have already been drawn and returned) seems silly to me. Is it “fair” that little Timmy is going to hunt deer in my preferred unit this year and I’m going to hunt a lesser unit, then wait a whole long year and be able to hunt my preferred unit next fall? I guess not. But I’m willing to deal with that inequality to allow a kid the chance at a good hunt.
I think 206 of the many thousands of total deer tags given out in the state seems like a minimal sacrifice.

 

[D_Walt]

Nope only 5+ resident points, are offered to the next person in line. These tags all go straight to the list.




I hope all the parents on the forum are applying and getting out there with their kids, sincerely. My nephew is up to bat next year, and I'd like to take him on his first backpack hunt... would be super cool.

That does not negate the fact that this is an unfair and poorly thought out system.

It's the same crap that is going on in Montana, "F-it I got my missouri breaks permit, I mean so did half of bozeman, but whatever I can see how this personally benefits me so, meh."

I agree with you on the assessment that this process “leaks points” and it is definitely a contributing factor to point creep and not getting high point holders out of the system.
Slightly different type of management flaw than the Montana example though. The net effect on the resource in the CO 2nd draw is zero, where as the MT way seems to be “kill ‘em all”. (At least that’s how I understand it from reading the enthusiastic conversations of HTers about the MT deer opportunities). In CO those who are trying to build points and plan a hunt are bearing the burden of the tag distribution in the 2nd draw; MT the wildlife itself is suffering the consequences.
Though to your point, people seldom complain about things that they perceive to benefit them directly, even if it might not be the best policy.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@wllm I agree with you on many things you’re saying here. And I think you bring up a lot of good points. I just think, that of all of the things to get worked up about, the fact that kids get preference on mid-low range tags (tags that have already been drawn and returned) seems silly to me. Is it “fair” that little Timmy is going to hunt deer in my preferred unit this year and I’m going to hunt a lesser unit, then wait a whole long year and be able to hunt my preferred unit next fall? I guess not. But I’m willing to deal with that inequality to allow a kid the chance at a good hunt.
I think 206 of the many thousands of total deer tags given out in the state seems like a minimal sacrifice.

It was brought before the commission that the 80/20 v. 65/35 units needed to be re-examined?

Literally less tags than we are talking about here, not to mention the totality of the reissue process.

For me the dad draw is just one annoying symptom of the larger problem.

The entire issue is refunds, the system is so lax that people milk the crap out of it. Apply in WY or MT draw a good tag, return your CO tag. Go scout don't see big hank, return your tag... etc etc. Because of this a lot of people are applying haphazardly.

Everyone knows they can get their points back so bake that into their plans, it means A LOT of people return their tags. It creates a huge problem for CPW, they put a ton of manhours into the process. Thousands and thousands of extra transaction, running multiple draws + the reissue process.

No other state does this... why?

Way stricter refund policies.

Wyoming


New Mexico


MT has a strict policy but you can get a percentage of your combo refunded.

I realize it may seem like I'm changing my argument on you, not my intention. As to Timmy... so Timmy get's preference in the secondary draw and has the opportunity to hunt great tags for a handful of years while building points?

Conceivably Timmy could accrue what? 6points and hunt 5 4pt deer tags by the time he's 18? So glad Timmy get's to have his cake and eat it too... what makes Timmy more deserving than a Vet? or literally anyone else for that matter.

Timmy will have a lifetime to hunt, absolutely doe/cow tags or OTC tags, absolutely do I approve of early seasons so parents can take their kids out with less or no pressure.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I agree with you on the assessment that this process “leaks points” and it is definitely a contributing factor to point creep and not getting high point holders out of the system.
Slightly different type of management flaw than the Montana example though. The net effect on the resource in the CO 2nd draw is zero, where as the MT way seems to be “kill ‘em all”. (At least that’s how I understand it from reading the enthusiastic conversations of HTers about the MT deer opportunities). In CO those who are trying to build points and plan a hunt are bearing the burden of the tag distribution in the 2nd draw; MT the wildlife itself is suffering the consequences.
Though to your point, people seldom complain about things that they perceive to benefit them directly, even if it might not be the best policy.

You raise a great point, you're right that wasn't a fair comparison due to the effect on wildlife.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@RyGuy @D_Walt end of the day I just want a system that all our kids aren't going to roll their eyes at in 20 years. How much do we all wish that 30 years ago someone had told folks to pump the breaks on preference points?

 

[NativeIndian]

CO needs to charge up front for tags. It's a gut punch to see 8 tags in the secondary draw in the unit I applied for, and had a 50-50 shot at drawing the first time around. I don't mind not getting the tag, but play to win, or get out. It's stupid.

Agreed. I put in for a unit that odds were 100% for me to draw. Everyone must've jumped in because I didn't get drawn and now there's leftovers. smh

 

[RyGuy]

@RyGuy @D_Walt end of the day I just want a system that all our kids aren't going to roll their eyes at in 20 years. How much do we all wish that 30 years ago someone had told folks to pump the breaks on preference points?

Yes for sure. I too wish that we had stricter return policies. I also would be on board with less tags to non-residents 90-10?
I guess I’m focusing in too much on one thing, because I agree with you that the returns of tags and the secondary draw are flawed.

 

[Ben Nicholson]

Agreed. I put in for a unit that odds were 100% for me to draw. Everyone must've jumped in because I didn't get drawn and now there's leftovers. smh

13 tags showed up in a unit that I didn't draw. The system is broken.