Colorado 2nd Draw?

[WIbiggame]

Would something like what Idaho does make any difference? In that you pick 1 MSG to apply for. Could you do the same for DEA?

I've heard it said 90% of the elk are killed by 10% of the hunters every year. I would bet anyone 90% of the tags are applied for by 10% of the people also. Wish there was a way to curve the shotgun approach to applications.

 

[Oak]

I just think point creep is inevitable. It’s happening across the west even in states that don’t returning of the tag. I mean just look at WY.

Wish there was a way to curve the shotgun approach to applications.

What if you could only apply for a hunt code? No applying/buying a point only. Couple that with reduced/eliminated opportunities for returning tags.

 

[TOGIE]

my first steps at solutions:

no refunds on anything, points or money, unless you're military or have a life altering medical situation come up.

i almost don't care if the secondary, leftover, reissue process doesn't change at all. as long as there are no refunds, zip zero, zilch.

if you hunt otc you don't get points cause you didn't apply (like oaks plan). edit: they'd have to make more tweaks than just that, cause you can apply and hunt otc if you don't draw.

put a side random drawing on nearly every hunt code. increase that random drawing to 20% of tags if it takes more than 5 points using LAST YEARS DRAWING DATA.

probably easier to just burn the whole ship down and start over.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

What if you could only apply for a hunt code? No applying/buying a point only. Couple that with reduced/eliminated opportunities for returning tags.

Problem is you could just apply for 20pt units every year right?

This would be a pretty slick... but also would require some fancy (though probably not actually that difficult) programing.
-After each draw assign every code a pref point pool (like I did on the spreadsheet above)
-Eliminate the secondary draw
-Make everything first come first served, but only people within 2 points of that tag can login and try and grab it, and it uses your points.

So a Unit 2 elk tag gets returned, it gets posted and folks who have 23-25 pts can grab it. That way your giving it to someone, but your also taking a high point holder out of the pool.

But ^ is also just spending a lot of money polishing a turd.

Still worse than No Refunds.

 

[Oak]

Problem is you could just apply for 20pt units every year right?

Yes, in CO. But it I think we are are one of the only states that operates on straight preference? Multi-state applicants would have to seriously consider their application strategy. Without looking, I'm guessing that the number of applicants across the west who apply/buy points only is similar to CO, >/= 50%.

 

[Dsnow9]

Problem is you could just apply for 20pt units every year right?

This would be a pretty slick... but also would require some fancy (though probably not actually that difficult) programing.
-After each draw assign every code a pref point pool (like I did on the spreadsheet above)
-Eliminate the secondary draw
-Make everything first come first served, but only people within 2 points of that tag can login and try and grab it, and it uses your points.

So a Unit 2 elk tag gets returned, it gets posted and folks who have 23-25 pts can grab it. That way your giving it to someone, but your also taking a high point holder out of the pool.

But ^ is also just spending a lot of money polishing a turd.

Still worse than No Refunds.

What a great idea. To bad the programmers behind the process have trouble putting one foot in front of the other.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Yes, in CO. But it I think we are are one of the only states that operates on straight preference? Multi-state applicants would have to seriously consider their application strategy. Without looking, I'm guessing that the number of applicants across the west who apply/buy points only is similar to CO, >/= 50%.

To that point going back to a straight lottery, with no points would be "the best" for everyone.

But yes I think if there was some sort of random chance that you would draw + you couldn't just get a point, it would change peoples application patterns a whole lot.

 

[Buffs35]

my first steps at solutions:

no refunds on anything, points or money, unless you're military or have a life altering medical situation come up.

i almost don't care if the secondary, leftover, reissue process doesn't change at all. as long as there are no refunds, zip zero, zilch.

if you hunt otc you don't get points cause you didn't apply (like oaks plan). edit: they'd have to make more tweaks than just that, cause you can apply and hunt otc if you don't draw.

put a side random drawing on nearly every hunt code. increase that random drawing to 20% of tags if it takes more than 5 points using LAST YEARS DRAWING DATA.

probably easier to just burn the whole ship down and start over.

for your point solution, I would make preference points available for purchase after the last season closes. You are only eligible to purchase a point if you applied in the primary draw and didn't draw a tag in primary or secondary draws (doesn't matter what choice), and you also failed to pick up a tag on leftovers or hunt OTC. If you hunt, you can't also acquire a point.

 

[Big Fin]

Yes, in CO. But it I think we are are one of the only states that operates on straight preference? Multi-state applicants would have to seriously consider their application strategy. Without looking, I'm guessing that the number of applicants across the west who apply/buy points only is similar to CO, >/= 50%.

Yup. Lots of examples to support that.

For Wyoming elk, a state where 75% go via PP system and 25% go to a random draw, only 20% of point holders even applied in 2022. The other 80% will likely buy another point this summer and continue to stay on the treadmill.

In Utah, a state where 50% of tags are to the highest point holders and thus more of a true PP system for that part of the draw, 53% actually applied for an elk tag and 47% just bought a point.

This is only a couple states, but if that is a supportable pattern, the smaller the portion that goes to a true PP draw, the larger the percentage of people that actually apply for a tag and the lower the percentage of people who are just "point buyers."

 

[Jdp010]

.... Every year 20+ people for each species of MSG turned in tags and they went in the trash. Now 20+ people get to hunt those species and are removed from the point pool. ...

Sounds like this all was originally a great idea when originated. Just poor execution by CPW in the details and evolution.

Because CPW is NOT removing folks from the point pool for either Secondary/Youth draw or via the 11am Wed re-issue grab-bag.

And while CPW has all the data and technology they need to just offer the tag to the very next person in a 16 year line (NR) – CPW instead just throws these tags up for grabs to folks that didn’t even participate in the primary draw (ever).

I just had another NR buddy reply – and I now have seven NR youth applied in the secondary/youth draw for O3/O4 buck tags that are 4-5 point RES draws (11-16 NR draws). Most of those returned/unpaid tags are RES returns/non-pays and will convert to NR by this wild process. That would frustrate me if I was a CO RES who applied for those exact tags in the primary draw.

But as a NR that now understands this game – I’m checking in to play the game for both youth and myself. I have 12+ CO NR points for all species. I am going to be ready to go at 11am mountain time every Wed starting in August. I am going to acquire some great CO tags and still keep accumulating points at the same time for those species. Craziness. All from the state that invented point creep.

 

[Thomas11]

What if you could only apply for a hunt code? No applying/buying a point only. Couple that with reduced/eliminated opportunities for returning tags.

U can only apply for one tag in reality? I mean I guess u get a second choice but those are zero pt tags. And there in lies the problem. CPW has to issue tags to meet quota objectives. The real problem is everyone wants a glory tag or nothing and when they finally realize they will never draw it they jump to a lesser unit and point creep goes up. Idk name a state that hasn’t saw extreme either pt creep or demand go up. There is just so much demand. I mean NM has record applicants every yr, ID not many yrs ago u could just pick one up when u got there and usually buy a second one now u can’t realistically even get in the que in dec, WY creep is ridiculous, AZ has managed creep pretty decent w all the late season tags, MT-well I’m not even sure what to say their backwards system but it takes longer to a general tag for sure, NV and UT is what it is always will take lots of points due to so limited of tags. CO’s main issue to me everyone wants a glory tag and there’s only a handful of units. If they don’t reissue the returned tags then they are meeting quota/harvest objectives. This was the main reason for starting the reissue process. I think I read there were like over 6000 last yr so that’s a lot if your trying to maintain a quota or potential harvest objectives

 

[NativeIndian]

Also very annoyed that multiples of a tag I didn’t draw in primary is here in the secondary and I have to pay (again) for a chance and probably fail (again) only to inevitably see it later hit reissue list where i will fail (again) to draw it. Just a crazy system.

Exactly! If you weren't drawn and the tag was returned, then those who applied for that unit originally should get first crack at it, at no extra cost.

 

[NativeIndian]

my first steps at solutions:

no refunds on anything, points or money, unless you're military or have a life altering medical situation come up.

i almost don't care if the secondary, leftover, reissue process doesn't change at all. as long as there are no refunds, zip zero, zilch.

if you hunt otc you don't get points cause you didn't apply (like oaks plan). edit: they'd have to make more tweaks than just that, cause you can apply and hunt otc if you don't draw.

put a side random drawing on nearly every hunt code. increase that random drawing to 20% of tags if it takes more than 5 points using LAST YEARS DRAWING DATA.

probably easier to just burn the whole ship down and start over.

"probably easier to just burn the whole ship down and start over." LMAO that's priceless!! I agree 100%!

 

[Jdp010]

....

no refunds on anything, points or money, unless you're military or have a life altering medical situation come up.

....

"No refunds" fixes alot of this line-cutting, point creep and NR cap-busting.

The "any reason" (and last minute-NV) refund states of CO & NV encourage risky application behavior. Then, especially the RES, will return tags for low cost and get their points back (NV even gives +1 points for current year!).

So, no shocker that CO & NV are the same two states that came up with these crazy re-issue/FCFS programs to double sell tags at 10x NR rates for funding.

Think of all the good deeds that could have been accomplished with all the screen-hours spent by re-issue/FCFS geeks. At least CO now limits your time-suck to about an hour surrounding 11am on Wednesdays. You can blow an entire fall of your employer's time on NV FCFS waiting for one of those 7 ram tags that went FCFS.

Eventually, enough RES will wake up and realize that these programs cause RES to NR tag conversion and point creep.

 

[Duff Hunter]

My card just had the hold put on. It seems like 2nd draw went well for me.

 

[TheHeadTurkey]

My card just got charged, excited to see what I drew

 

[ElkHunter80]

Same here, card just got hit for the elk tag I put in for

 

[NativeIndian]

Same here, card just got hit for the elk tag I put in for

Dang you guys must've all put in for one of the 70 tag units. Mine was declined. Everyone else was the same in another thread on here.

 

[Mudranger1]

1 doe tag for my wife...5 failure notices between bear lopes and elk...but I'm sure each tag will be available every Wednesday for leftover day disappointments

 

[NativeIndian]

1 doe tag for my wife...5 failure notices between bear lopes and elk...but I'm sure each tag will be available every Wednesday for leftover day disappointments

Sad but probably true.