Career advice needed. Starting a job hunt under the radar

[HighDesertSage]

If your worried about it, just find another job and move on. I certainly wouldn't lie, but there's no need to advertise what you're doing. If a company was looking at firing/layoffs they'd do the same.

Also, if it's truly time to move on, don't worry to much about how long you've been there. Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I've lost all sense of loyalty to a company. I was loyal to a company for 6 years. Had great feedback, good relationships, and the last year I was there they strung me along because they needed me to finish a project. Once it was done they let me go. If they had been honest with me, I could have made plans and had something else lined up.

The current company I am with just went through a big merger. A guy I call a friend, who has been with them for 12 years, just got let go. Their reason? The position was eliminated with the merger. I talked to him last night and he said his gut told him this was coming for months now, but he refused to believe it would happen because of how long he'd been there. Point is, it's not unethical or immoral to look our for yourself.

If it's mutually beneficial, great! If not, it's time to move on. Be polite, have some class, just tell them it's not working out, and you wish them the best, once you have a new job of course.

 

[rjthehunter]

In today's world you need to look out for yourself. Don't let guilt keep you from making a better life for your family.

One thing I should mention is to put in your two weeks but plan on being let go that same day. Most employers will just cut you loose immediately.

Staying after telling your current employer that you have been looking for another job will make the ret of your days at that company a complete egshell experience. Just take the other job and move on. The trust is broken when you start trying to match offers....

Maybe it's different in your line of work, but 2 weeks sometimes isn't enough in my line of work for them to find a replacement. They would take a month if they could. Talent and competent workers are getting harder to come by.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Way I see it is that when someone lets you go or lays you off they give you 0 days notice....

So IMHO no employer deserves more than 2 weeks notice...

 

[Pucky Freak]

Regarding accepting the counter. think of this in terms of a relationship (because it is). If a girlfriend you have dated for years says “you have to take me on a 3-wk trip to Mexico, or we are done and I will go with ‘Bob’ who I met a month ago and have gone to lunch with twice.” I think that relationship is in trouble. Taking her to Mexico ain’t going to fix the problem.

I’m not sure that analogy holds up. I’m not going to ditch my wife for a younger, thinner, etc. woman just because I think I can do better. Marriage is a “covenant.” The employer-employee relationship is contractual. You stick around as long as it suits you, and they keep you around as long as it suits them. Accepting a counter offer doesn’t need to poison the well. They wouldn’t have offered it if they didn’t want to make your terms more favorable in the first place. Loyalty to company was the way of the business world a couple generations ago, but this value is been dead a long time, and I don’t begrudge it.

 

[Sytes]

The current company I am with just went through a big merger. A guy I call a friend, who has been with them for 12 years, just got let go. Their reason? The position was eliminated with the merger. I talked to him last night and he said his gut told him this was coming for months now, but he refused to believe it would happen because of how long he'd been there. Point is, it's not unethical or immoral to look our for yourself.

Agree. This comes to the value of a headhunter.

"Professional" Headhunters are extremely valuable based on their reputation built within their focused area. Employers depend on these headhunters to keep them in the loop for employees they may steal and depend on "professional" headhunters to share the value the client they represent while protecting their client's anonymity until the next level towards commitment. It's a balancing act and preceded reputation that defines the difference between, "Professional" and others that are either trying to build their reputation or flat out pretend they have a reputation <danger>.

A headhunter is the way to go. No counteroffers - I agree. I also agree to discuss concerns w/ those in a position to assist. If not, save your breath - keep your cards close to your chest. Also, professional headhunters may share potential opportunities though likely will not take you on unless they see you are committed to a move in your field.

Meh, two cents.

 

[JDH]

Way I see it is that when someone lets you go or lays you off they give you 0 days notice....

So IMHO no employer deserves more than 2 weeks notice...

But hopefully they would offer at least two weeks severance.

 

[SAJ-99]

I’m not sure that analogy holds up. I’m not going to ditch my wife for a younger, thinner, etc. woman just because I think I can do better. Marriage is a “covenant.” The employer-employee relationship is contractual. You stick around as long as it suits you, and they keep you around as long as it suits them. Accepting a counter offer doesn’t need to poison the well. They wouldn’t have offered it if they didn’t want to make your terms more favorable in the first place. Loyalty to company was the way of the business world a couple generations ago, but this value is been dead a long time, and I don’t begrudge it.

It was an analogy, a parable. I didn't say wife, I said girlfriend to avoid the whole legal agreement/"covenant" argument. No comparison is perfect.
I agree that loyalty is dead, but it never really existed. Employees never saw the lack of it because things moved more slowly than today so you could work at the same place for 20,30yrs and change was incremental. Today's business environment moves at light speed compared to them.

Companies that counter do so because it is a LOT easier to keep that person and pay them more than to hire another person to fill in. There is considerable risk that when times get tougher, the employer will remember that action. Or maybe the employer "asks" the employee to take a pay cut. I have been on both sides (employer/employee) of this arrangement through my career and I stand by my advice. Beware accepting counter offers.

 

[schmalts]

Way I see it is that when someone lets you go or lays you off they give you 0 days notice....

So IMHO no employer deserves more than 2 weeks notice...

Even more so now that most companies offer a fraction of benefits that they did when the whole 2 week notice thing was standard. A place that offers crappy benefits offers little to be loyal too. 20 years ago when the whole 2 week notice thing was still standard people were getting pensions and other benefits based on how long they stayed at a company. IMO when places offer no pension, little vacation, little health care coverage, they OWE YOU, not the other way around. When a place offers little to nothing, I see little reason to give them more than a little notice. Times have changed and I see why the younger gen does this "ghosting" thing where they just don't show up anymore and do not even give notice. Yes it is disrespectful but again, employers control if they offer an employee something worth staying. I did not realize this until I read a good article about the ghosting thing and I kind or said "huh, I guess what do they have to lose?"

 

[Frenchy]

Good discussions by all. I'm in an similar situation. I have had a larger competing company ask me about my interest in joining them for the past 16 months or so. Current company is SMALL, so me leaving would put them in a bind. I'm the only senior employee besides the boss. I don't hate my current position, just quirky little things that bug me. Pay is OK, but could be better. My main reason for leaving is because I don't see this current job becoming anything more than just a job. Meaning no partnership or chance of more than just a salary coming my way anytime soon. So if I am to work just a job, why not work the one that offers me the most. Jumping ship would probably net close to a $20k raise and some additional retirement perks. Would also be a more "social" environment which is something I enjoy when sitting in the same chair for 40hrs/week.

But I'm a loyal person first and foremost. So its a decision that is weighing on me heavily for over a year. I'm also not a guy that is comfortable raising my hand and saying "I want....". So I'm stuck just taking what the company doles out. So my approach this year will be to ask them what the next 5 years looks like for me within this company. Lead them down a path to discuss my future candidly. Hopefully the conversation will steer towards something tangible, but I anticipate it going no where specific. The two owners are just not the type to see the writing on the wall. So if left unsatisfied, I will schedule an appointment with the other company and see where that goes. If I get an offer there that I like, I will give my current employer 2 weeks notice. No counter offer from the current employer will be considered. I fall firmly in the camp that if an employer recognizes the value of an employee, they should make it so that employee never has any interest in looking elsewhere. But the culture here is do anything and everything to make the client happy. We all don't have jobs without clients. Ignoring that happy employees make for happy clients.

Good Luck with your decision. My approach would be to have a year end sit down with the current employer. If things don't go to your liking, go search out that other opportunity without having to worry about keeping it on the down low.

 

[SAJ-99]

Yes it is disrespectful but again, employers control if they offer an employee something worth staying.

I think the saying is "Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching." Justifying the lack of it because the "other guy" doesn't have it either leads to a downward spiral. I prefer to hire people with integrity and treat them with respect. I have even given people that worked for me recommendations for new jobs, because if they get better I succeeded at my job of managing them. Also, helping people seems to create good karma and people soon find the world is small place.

 

[Wildabeest]

As a manager, I’ll challenge the “decline all counter offers” philosophy. I work for a fairly large company, and often it takes something like an outside offer for me to get HR to pay people what they are worth. It’s not that the company doesn’t value them, it’s that they are subject to blanket corporate policies and procedures that struggle to be agile wrt to responses to individual situations. I’ve had numerous folks on my team that have gotten external offers that we then matched or exceeded. I’d never actually encourage them to do that though...

I’ve also had people leave and then within a year or two want to come back. As my pastor used to say, “the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence, it’s green where you water it”. So I’d recommend that whatever you do, you do it in a very professional manner and don’t burn any bridges. You may find that you’ve been oversold on the new opportunity. I try to take the same approach as a manager. If I can’t convince a good resource to stay, I always tell them that I’m supportive of their decision to do what they feel is the best interest of their career, but also let them know that if it doesn’t work out I’d be happy to take them back. Letting people know that you care about them on a personal level goes a long way in how they perceive their work environment. If they don’t get that same sense in their new environment, there’s a good chance they will come back.

 

[JDH]

Interesting conversation... I'm also looking into leaving. I work at a satellite office for a larger company and can't get a promotion. I'm doing the exact same job as the guys above me but supposedly something I did 4 years ago is holding me up and my boss doesn't feel he can "sell the main office" on my promotion.

 

[npaden]

My view is the last thing you want to do in a close industry is burn your reputation by appearing to be sneaky or leveraging one offer to sweeten your current deal. My approach would be to have an honest conversation with your current employer. Explain your concerns and either get a commitment or a line of BS. If the latter, then you can look around with your head held high. If your current employer fires you for that, you are better off not being there anyway.

I don’t know anything about your industry but in some hiring a headhunter is not helpful.

Good luck.

This is great advice. As an employer I'm always willing to talk with people about where they are at and what their long term outlook is. Right now in service oriented businesses succession planning is a HUGE deal. If they aren't willing to talk to you about it then they probably aren't thinking ahead long term and they either need to start now or you are probably correct in looking on to other options.

Be prepared for them to tell you that they do have a succession plan and you aren't a part of it as well. Maybe they are looking at selling out to a larger company or something to that effect. That would also tell you what you need to know.

 

[npaden]

As a manager, I’ll challenge the “decline all counter offers” philosophy. I work for a fairly large company, and often it takes something like an outside offer for me to get HR to pay people what they are worth. It’s not that the company doesn’t value them, it’s that they are subject to blanket corporate policies and procedures that struggle to be agile wrt to responses to individual situations. I’ve had numerous folks on my team that have gotten external offers that we then matched or exceeded. I’d never actually encourage them to do that though...

I’ve also had people leave and then within a year or two want to come back. As my pastor used to say, “the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence, it’s green where you water it”. So I’d recommend that whatever you do, you do it in a very professional manner and don’t burn any bridges. You may find that you’ve been oversold on the new opportunity. I try to take the same approach as a manager. If I can’t convince a good resource to stay, I always tell them that I’m supportive of their decision to do what they feel is the best interest of their career, but also let them know that if it doesn’t work out I’d be happy to take them back. Letting people know that you care about them on a personal level goes a long way in how they perceive their work environment. If they don’t get that same sense in their new environment, there’s a good chance they will come back.

Also very good advice. We have people come to us with offers occasionally and sometimes we don't make any adjustments and sometimes we do. We also have people leave and then come back realizing that there is a lot more to a career than an bit more $$ especially when that comes at the price of a lot more hours and a crappy work environment.

I think a good sign of a place to make a long term career is a place that shows that it really cares about it's employees and has open and honest communication with them. We are trying to do more and more along those lines with sharing revenue and growth numbers, more performance based bonuses, etc. One thing I have keyed into lately is that you can treat employees differently and it is okay. Why drag down your best employees to the same level as everyone else. Treat them better and maybe it will encourage others to step up. As opposed to the traditional way of piling more and more work on the best employees because they can handle it and the poor employees are over there doing nothing and nearly getting paid the same. If you are going to give the best employees more work, at least reward them financially for it. Easier said than done though. Sorry for going off track.

 

[David58]

Just curious why you believe this? Not saying you’re wrong I’ve heard others say this but never heard a good reason why? I could see this with smaller companies to an extent but why do you believe it will
Ruin a relationship? If the company is willing to pay more to keep you or give you what you are requesting why would it ruin the relationship? If the relationship is that far gone I don’t see the company making the counteroffer in the first place?

Studies have shown that the person that has decided to stay after a counteroffer has usually gone ahead and left, or has been terminated. Basic trust has been fractured, and often the counteroffer is merely a ploy to allow the employer to find a replacement for a less abrupt transition.

 

[mdhunter]

As an owner when someone comes to me and says the job isn’t satisfactory because of the pay...it’s usually not the pay. I am not saying the employe is bad or even wrong. The situation just isn’t a match because of corporate culture, hours, home life, whatever. They think a few extra bucks will make it better but more often than not, it’s just no longer a match.

 

[plumber1969]

I've been on both sides of this fence. I will tell you as an employee, I was contacted by a headhunter and was given a written offer that was almost double my salary at that time. Problem was, it was also our youngest daughters last year of high school and the job requirement required me to be on the road. A year later and this would have been a perfect fit. I passed on the job and spent the time with our family. Money isn't everything and I was offered a different position and now have a job with 2 pensions. The contractor I worked for and still have a great relationship with, often asks me why I left. The answer was simple, they never offered me a reason to stay until after I left.

 

[longbow51]

Agree with a lot of the advice; LinkedIn is your friend, but people who actually know you and what you can do are the ones who most often find new jobs. Many times companies who interview outsiders already have an insider in mind, and, sometimes for legal reasons, depending upon corporate structure have to have an open interview process.

Having said that, unless you're 100% sure the company you would be going to is large enough to be stable, this might be a bad time to jump. Covid is on the upswing, although the vaccines are certainly good news. And, we have a new administration, and no one knows what effect it might have on various industries; he has vacillated on another shut down as well. If times get tough corporately, it's often LIFO; last in, first out. Good luck!

 

[Khunter]

Good discussions by all. I'm in an similar situation. I have had a larger competing company ask me about my interest in joining them for the past 16 months or so. Current company is SMALL, so me leaving would put them in a bind. I'm the only senior employee besides the boss. I don't hate my current position, just quirky little things that bug me. Pay is OK, but could be better. My main reason for leaving is because I don't see this current job becoming anything more than just a job. Meaning no partnership or chance of more than just a salary coming my way anytime soon. So if I am to work just a job, why not work the one that offers me the most. Jumping ship would probably net close to a $20k raise and some additional retirement perks. Would also be a more "social" environment which is something I enjoy when sitting in the same chair for 40hrs/week.

But I'm a loyal person first and foremost. So its a decision that is weighing on me heavily for over a year. I'm also not a guy that is comfortable raising my hand and saying "I want....". So I'm stuck just taking what the company doles out. So my approach this year will be to ask them what the next 5 years looks like for me within this company. Lead them down a path to discuss my future candidly. Hopefully the conversation will steer towards something tangible, but I anticipate it going no where specific. The two owners are just not the type to see the writing on the wall. So if left unsatisfied, I will schedule an appointment with the other company and see where that goes. If I get an offer there that I like, I will give my current employer 2 weeks notice. No counter offer from the current employer will be considered. I fall firmly in the camp that if an employer recognizes the value of an employee, they should make it so that employee never has any interest in looking elsewhere. But the culture here is do anything and everything to make the client happy. We all don't have jobs without clients. Ignoring that happy employees make for happy clients.

Good Luck with your decision. My approach would be to have a year end sit down with the current employer. If things don't go to your liking, go search out that other opportunity without having to worry about keeping it on the down low.

Wow. Everything about your post screams “wake up and move on now”. Your bent toward loyalty is a disservice to self. Get over the false choice that staying in a mediocre job you already know can be easily bested elsewhere is somehow the honorable and loyal thing to do. Only one you are hurting is you and only one you are helping is absolutley nobody.

 

[Frenchy]

Wow. Everything about your post screams “wake up and move on now”. Your bent toward loyalty is a disservice to self. Get over the false choice that staying in a mediocre job you already know can be easily bested elsewhere is somehow the honorable and loyal thing to do. Only one you are hurting is you and only one you are helping is absolutley nobody.

Cant argue with that.