Bulls for Billionaires - MT EQC Meeting today 1:30 PM

The word “Punitive” keeps entering this conversation. Usually in the context of “FWP policy is punitive towards private landowners.”

Can someone please explain to me how current FWP policy and the laws @ tag allocation are punitive towards landowners?

Landowners already receive preferential treatment with regards to tag allocations.

Are FWP policies punitive because they do not adequately relieve landowners of the financial burden of wildlife? The wildlife that exists as a condition of the land? The wildlife that was part of the landscape for far more years than that land was under private ownership?

If in your opinion FWP should bear the legal responsibility of ensuring landowners aren’t negatively affected by wildlife, shouldn’t FWP also ensure that I don’t suffer financially from the multiple deer that I hit while driving down the highway? Those deer have cost me thousands of dollars of damages and I didn’t want them to be where I was driving.


To be clear, I am supportive of helping alleviate landowners’ financial burden from wildlife as a collaborative gesture on the part of other shareholders who don’t have as large of a financial burden, but get to enjoy the benefits of wildlife. It makes perfect sense to me to show appreciation and help shoulder the load with our neighbors. I am willing to personally pay more than I currently do.

What doesn’t make sense to me is the continual efforts to enact legislation and wildlife management policies that benefit a minority of shareholders when those policies are detrimental to the resource and harm the interests of other shareholders. That seems to be “Punitive” to me.

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but I get a strong sense from some landowners that they shouldn’t have to feel any financial pressure at all from the state’s wildlife. When that’s the case, I would like to point out there is no legal support that mentality in MT law. They can certainly have that opinion as a matter of preference, but that doesn’t mean we enact policies or legislation from a basis of recognizing that as fact.
 
Facebook pushed me a montana ranch for sale listing today. The ad touted the elk and deer hunting as well as bordering public land. I’m sure owning it would be a horrible burden and most likely why the current owner wants to get rid of it
 
Facebook pushed me a montana ranch for sale listing today. The ad touted the elk and deer hunting as well as bordering public land. I’m sure owning it would be a horrible burden and most likely why the current owner wants to get rid of it
You should buy it! According to this Peanut Gallery, all of the subsidies from the Government should easily pay for it in no time.
 
You should buy it! According to this Peanut Gallery, all of the subsidies from the Government should easily pay for it in no time.
If I could get the initial loan I probably could. Looking at farm subsidies around me one of my local land barrens makes over twice what I do every year in subsidies alone. Who knows what he is making on actual commodities, rent on his various holdings, etc.; makes it even better to know he either inherited or married in to most of it. I know each house on hisland is bigger and nicer than what I have
 
I know much about Montana's geography, but little of other states. As it pertains to elk and conflict with those who work the land, how much if any, is a result of Montana's elk being much more constrained by suitable wintering ground when compared to other states? Is there a difference in that consideration for Montana? Just a genuine question.


From John B. Taylor's wonderful book, "A Job With Room and Board: Memories of an Early Montana Forester":

“Even forty years ago (1930s), the matter of suitable and sufficient forage for both wild and domestic animals presented a problem. In winter, cattlemen became irate, naturally, when hungry elk locked out of their own grazing lands by deep heavily crusted snow started pawing and tearing down haystacks on the home ranch grounds of the cattle. The sportsmen complained that the natural winter feeding ground of the elk had been eaten off by cattle in summer, leaving the elk no place to go. In summer, the sportsmen also protested our granting permits for cattle and sheep grazing on certain lands, terming it, “the encroachment of cattle and sheep on elk grazing territory”. Enthusiastic groups of sportsmen would get permission to trap and transplant elk from the too large Yellowstone herd to areas where there were no elk, but they seldom bothered to determine that there was winter forage available in the new location – and when the herd bred up toa large number, there was another controversy. It seems to be a continuing problem”
 
I know much about Montana's geography, but little of other states. As it pertains to elk and conflict with those who work the land, how much if any, is a result of Montana's elk being much more constrained by suitable wintering ground when compared to other states? Is there a difference in that consideration for Montana? Just a genuine question.


From John B. Taylor's wonderful book, "A Job With Room and Board: Memories of an Early Montana Forester":

“Even forty years ago (1930s), the matter of suitable and sufficient forage for both wild and domestic animals presented a problem. In winter, cattlemen became irate, naturally, when hungry elk locked out of their own grazing lands by deep heavily crusted snow started pawing and tearing down haystacks on the home ranch grounds of the cattle. The sportsmen complained that the natural winter feeding ground of the elk had been eaten off by cattle in summer, leaving the elk no place to go. In summer, the sportsmen also protested our granting permits for cattle and sheep grazing on certain lands, terming it, “the encroachment of cattle and sheep on elk grazing territory”. Enthusiastic groups of sportsmen would get permission to trap and transplant elk from the too large Yellowstone herd to areas where there were no elk, but they seldom bothered to determine that there was winter forage available in the new location – and when the herd bred up toa large number, there was another controversy. It seems to be a continuing problem”
Very interesting!
 
Even if the areas are over objective how in the heck does killing a couple trophy bulls help bring them into objective? I’m sure there are plenty of less than trophy class bulls that will get the breeding done or is it just a magic situation that when you’re able to hang a big bull in your house or a clients that high elk numbers are suddenly not a problem?

Killing bulls doesn't do jack for herd management outside of managing for the correct bull/cow ratio. It does, theoretically, provide the incentive to allow increased use of a private property in order to achieve better management outcomes. And that's the crux of the issue: one set of stakeholders is concerned about what happens to everyone's opportunity if MT goes down the road that other states have when they limit resident hunters for the benefit of outfitters and landowners, reducing the number of people who are involved in the sport. The other stakeholder group is looking at this from an economic and business mindset relative to their bottomline as well as what condition they want their private property to be in. The third set of stakeholders is viewing elk as a commodity to be bartered like steel or grain, rather than as a living thing that exists regardless of ownership or management placement. And the last set is the wealthy out of state billionaires who are driving a lot of the discussion because they're funding so many people to attack the system and replace it with something more like TX or NM.


If sportsmen are honest, we can find common ground with outfitters and traditional landowners. I doubt there is much common ground with those seeking to privatize the resource for their own gain or selfish interests.
 
Can see it now. Get an FWP email and open it up to find a picture of Barry disguised as an important email.
Barry's my B grade stuff. Last trick email I sent to Big Shooter was a link to a Fox News headline Biden was going to make Covid vaccinations mandatory. When you clicked on it, it took you to a pic of Hank and 2 big eastern MT non-resident billionaire landowners making a deal on bull elk permits.
 
Barry's my B grade stuff. Last trick email I sent to Big Shooter was a link to a Fox News headline Biden was going to make Covid vaccinations mandatory. When you clicked on it, it took you to a pic of Hank and 2 big eastern MT landowners making a deal on bull permits.
outfitters or landowners?

I am still scarred from that click bait.
 
Barry's my B grade stuff. Last trick email I sent to Big Shooter was a link to a Fox News headline Biden was going to make Covid vaccinations mandatory. When you clicked on it, it took you to a pic of Hank and 2 big eastern MT non-resident billionaire landowners making a deal on bull elk permits.
Jackass!🤦‍♂️
 
Killing bulls doesn't do jack for herd management outside of managing for the correct bull/cow ratio. It does, theoretically, provide the incentive to allow increased use of a private property in order to achieve better management outcomes. And that's the crux of the issue: one set of stakeholders is concerned about what happens to everyone's opportunity if MT goes down the road that other states have when they limit resident hunters for the benefit of outfitters and landowners, reducing the number of people who are involved in the sport. The other stakeholder group is looking at this from an economic and business mindset relative to their bottomline as well as what condition they want their private property to be in. The third set of stakeholders is viewing elk as a commodity to be bartered like steel or grain, rather than as a living thing that exists regardless of ownership or management placement. And the last set is the wealthy out of state billionaires who are driving a lot of the discussion because they're funding so many people to attack the system and replace it with something more like TX or NM.


If sportsmen are honest, we can find common ground with outfitters and traditional landowners. I doubt there is much common ground with those seeking to privatize the resource for their own gain or selfish interests.
Last paragraph first, outfitters have little if anything to do with the equation, we are simply there by the landowners leave. We are the go between and scapegoat.

Onto the crux, you’re correct, killing bull elk does nothing to address numbers. I am for finding the right incentive package for these “billionaire” landowners, if that’s giving them 1-2-5-9(pick a number) of bull permits, and allowing X #’s of successful either sex permit hunters access(free), and “Y” number of cow hunters in(free) to begin addressing the over number problem. Maybe make each district where modified 454 plans are in place cow only last 2-3 weeks of season. Don’t over run the ranch in one year, but figure 3-5 yrs to have cows harvested to bring numbers in check. Something needs be done before disease wipes out the elk. To many wild ungulates in small areas are prone to die offs.
 
Last paragraph first, outfitters have little if anything to do with the equation, we are simply there by the landowners leave. We are the go between and scapegoat.

Onto the crux, you’re correct, killing bull elk does nothing to address numbers. I am for finding the right incentive package for these “billionaire” landowners, if that’s giving them 1-2-5-9(pick a number) of bull permits, and allowing X #’s of successful either sex permit hunters access(free), and “Y” number of cow hunters in(free) to begin addressing the over number problem. Maybe make each district where modified 454 plans are in place cow only last 2-3 weeks of season. Don’t over run the ranch in one year, but figure 3-5 yrs to have cows harvested to bring numbers in check. Something needs be done before disease wipes out the elk. To many wild ungulates in small areas are prone to die offs.

Don't sell the outfitter community so short. ;) Paul Ellis has been pushing the narrative of bull elk tags are what will bring elk under objective. His bills in 2009, 2011, 2013, 2015 & I believe 2017 (I'll have to double check on that) have been all about telling people that we need to kill bulls to get populations under control and removing the commissions authority to set seasons in favor of politicians doing so in statute. Outfitters have helped create the mess that licensing is now, both through divisions of licenses to increase # of NR's getting A tags for deer, increased elk tags, bonus points, preference points, etc. I think we can look at the outfitter community as part of the problem here just like we can look at the rest of us as being part of the problem. In the rush to create a larger market for themselves and stack the deck in their favor (2 points for every sport!), the result is actually worse than a straight points draw that is pretty predictable based on an increased number of B-10's to match the herd & current allocation of the resource. But a totally fair point, and I think Montanans need to recognize that the outfitter community are their neighbors too, and finding some path forward together is always going to be a good idea.

However, none of that is about 454, so on that, I'm less concerned about what the Wilk's & their lobbyists/politicians want than I am what will help the family farmer and rancher of Montana. The 454 agreements can be a tool used for great good, but it has to come from the ground up, and not from the politically connected, just like we need better outcomes for wildlife first, and the people second. 100% on board with giving a family of 4 permits if we get 16 opportunities including bull harvest in a structured and managed hunting plan.
 
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