Bullet not grouping

[TheJason]

Sounds like he just needs to retest his load off a proper bench and setup like he was shooting off when he shot 100 times better according to the OP.

Dewey- Retest your loads off something your comfortable on and can settle into the rifle solid. Also be sure it's a repeatable position. Even prone is a very good choice.

This is good advice. Then, shoot a three shot group with the factory loads while the barrel is hot and see if you can replicate the previous groups. That will tell you if barrel heating is an issue.

 

[Dewey]

With as much searching he web for information on reloading and similar topics I never came accross the ladder test. I just checked it out. I like it. Still being pretty green in reloading is this method what most guys use when coming up with a load or is it trial and error with small tests like a 3 shot group ?

Sigh...

If you had done an actual ladder test, gotten your powder charge, then seating depth test you would have been done by now.
Don't do ladder tests with groups!

 

[HiMtnHntr]

Could be the rifle doesn't like that load or the reloads are inconsitent.

It's a little easier to let the barrel cool properly A. If you aren't in a hurry. Range time can't be rushed. B. Take another rifle to shoot in between.

You might check the torque on your action screws.

Try a different bullet.

 

[antelopedundee]

With as much searching he web for information on reloading and similar topics I never came accross the ladder test. I just checked it out. I like it. Still being pretty green in reloading is this method what most guys use when coming up with a load or is it trial and error with small tests like a 3 shot group ?

I wasn't familiar with the ladder test either, tho many folks probably use a variation of it without knowing it. I looked it up too and found this.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

http://www.gunsandtactics.com/performing-the-ladder-test

http://www.65guys.com/10-round-load-development-ladder-test/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/13/creighton-audette-ladder-testing/

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/ladder-testing-anybody-prefer-just-shooting-groups.3750276/

 

[antelopedundee]

I guess being used to shooting other rifles I never really thought about the fact it am burning almost twice the amount of powder in this gun than I am in my .270 and not letting it cool down enough. Besides letting it cool down on its own do you guys do anything to speed it up? Or is that just the best way to do it ... all natural

Short of finding a way to blow air down the bore, there isn't much you can do. If your range has electrical outlets close by you could always bring a fan. Or get one of those DC-AC converters and run the fan off of a battery.

 

[antelopedundee]

Sigh...

If you had done an actual ladder test, gotten your powder charge, then seating depth test you would have been done by now.
Don't do ladder tests with groups!

How many shots will one need to do with each powder charge to assure themselves that the shot wasn't a flyer, outlier, flincher or off of POA for some other reason?

 

[antelopedundee]

Jim Carmichael once wrote an article about certain loads working in most guns. If he acquired say a .308 Win for testing or other purpose, he would try his pet .308 loads and if the gun didn't shoot them well he wrote it off as a hopeless rifle. Is there any sort of compilation of pet/standard/preferred loads that one could consult as a starting point when loading for a new rifle?

 

[VikingsGuy]

I wasn't familiar with the ladder test either, tho many folks probably use a variation of it without knowing it. I looked it up too and found this.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

http://www.gunsandtactics.com/performing-the-ladder-test

http://www.65guys.com/10-round-load-development-ladder-test/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2012/07/13/creighton-audette-ladder-testing/

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/ladder-testing-anybody-prefer-just-shooting-groups.3750276/

These are great resources, but just so folks don't get too confused, they are describing two related but different approaches. Some discuss the traditional ladder test that focused around bullet point of impact. And, some discuss the more recent velocity-based "10 round quick development" approach, where you are focused on velocities and not point of impact. They are probably getting at similar load attributes but they do it in different manners. Then of course you have OCW. FWIW, as I am learning, I am using a mix of velocity based screening and OCW principles for refinement. The nice thing about the velocity approach is it reduces the effect of the shooter's accuracy/inaccuracy on selecting load amounts.

 

[antelopedundee]

These are great resources, but just so folks don't get too confused, they are describing two related but different approaches. Some discuss the traditional ladder test that focused around bullet point of impact. And, some discuss the more recent velocity-based "10 round quick development" approach, where you are focused on velocities and not point of impact. They are probably getting at similar load attributes but they do it in different manners. Then of course you have OCW. FWIW, as I am learning, I am using a mix of velocity based screening and OCW principles for refinement. The nice thing about the velocity approach is it reduces the effect of the shooter's accuracy/inaccuracy on selecting load amounts.

Given that you've opted for a certain bullet weight, how do you decide which powder to use since there are usually more than a few choices? For me primer choice is the least important and I usually use Remingtons since they are supposed to be the hardest.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Given that you've opted for a certain bullet weight, how do you decide which powder to use since there are usually more than a few choices? For me primer choice is the least important and I usually use Remingtons since they are supposed to be the hardest.

First, I made a choice to stick to Hodgdon Extreme family of powders only. I shoot from 95+ degrees to -10 degrees (gotta love MN) and wanted to reduce temp variability to the extent I am able. For a given bullet I then check the bullet manufacturer's load data seeking one or two of the Extreme powders for that bullet. Given the popularity of H4350, H4895, H4891SC and Varget there are almost always at least one on the list. If there are more than one and it is designated as "most accurate" in the load data I will pick that. If not so designated I will pick the one with less powder (less $ and less recoil) assuming it meets my velocity goals. I then check Hodgdon load data in the hopes they will have that bullet with that powder, about a 50-50 proposition given the many bullet types. I will then evaluate the data sets and go from there.

 

[ol_spark]

If everything is Ok with gun, scope, your technique I would change seating depth. Works for me.

 

[Dewey]

Kind of strange but my first batch of reloads I started at 74 grains for some reason. When I re loaded some bullets for today I started at 72 grains oh H1000 and shot less than 1” group and my group started to open up and by 73.5 I was at a 2” group. From looking at what others are shooting they seem to be shooting more powder than this. 72 grains of H1000 was the minimum charge level. That being said is this normal with Hornady 212 grain eld-x bullets? I figured I’d shoot these this year then try other brands and weight bullets and maybe powder for next year. The scope was on fine and straight after I double checked it and re torqued it.

 

[kiwi hunter]

parrellex ???

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

Kind of strange but my first batch of reloads I started at 74 grains for some reason. When I re loaded some bullets for today I started at 72 grains oh H1000 and shot less than 1” group and my group started to open up and by 73.5 I was at a 2” group. From looking at what others are shooting they seem to be shooting more powder than this. 72 grains of H1000 was the minimum charge level. That being said is this normal with Hornady 212 grain eld-x bullets? I figured I’d shoot these this year then try other brands and weight bullets and maybe powder for next year. The scope was on fine and straight after I double checked it and re torqued it.

From my understanding, there will usually be at least 2 accuracy nodes within the powder ranges. So you will find one at a lower end of the load spectrum (72 gr) and at least one more at a higher amount of powder. This is due to harmonics in your barrel and physics that I understand minimally (I think is similar to pitch harmonics on a guitar or other stringed instrument if you're familiar with that). So ideally you should be able to keep working up by .5 grains to a safe book amount and find another group that is decent. You can then take that group and fine tune that area using smaller powder adjustments. That's the traditional method that I'm trying to figure out myself for my rifle.

 

[antelopedundee]

From my understanding, there will usually be at least 2 accuracy nodes within the powder ranges. So you will find one at a lower end of the load spectrum (72 gr) and at least one more at a higher amount of powder. This is due to harmonics in your barrel and physics that I understand minimally (I think is similar to pitch harmonics on a guitar or other stringed instrument if you're familiar with that). So ideally you should be able to keep working up by .5 grains to a safe book amount and find another group that is decent. You can then take that group and fine tune that area using smaller powder adjustments. That's the traditional method that I'm trying to figure out myself for my rifle.

Isn't the rule of thumb that you want to choose the powder that most fills the case?

 

[cahunter805]

Dewey
Like stated there is generally a low node and a high node. Judging off your 72gr load the high node will be around 77gr. Have you loaded that high yet? I would keep increasing the powder charge by .5gr until you reach pressure. Seems book max is 78gr.
Also did you chronograph the loads?

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

Isn't the rule of thumb that you want to choose the powder that most fills the case?

I'm not experienced enough to know rules of thumb. That seems to be the case in many books, but I'm sure you can get some really good accuracy out of powders that don't fill the case entirely.

 

[antelopedundee]

I'm not experienced enough to know rules of thumb. That seems to be the case in many books, but I'm sure you can get some really good accuracy out of powders that don't fill the case entirely.

No doubt that's true, but all other things being equal it's usually recommended that one use the powder which most fills the case. It's also suggested that using too low of a charge of slow burning powder is as risky as using too much.

 

[Dewey]

I do not have a chronograph. But I did load up to 78 grains in .50 grain increments and the load kept getting worse.

 

[Dewey]

With 78 grains being the max recommended load I stopped my block said it was a compressed load but I still had room in the cartridge. I didn’t have any signs of pressure at 78 grains. No stress on the shell and primer looked normal