BLM land and aggressive sheep dogs

[Deleted member 28227]

I'm not saying I totally disagree... I'm just kinda cracking up because this is just something that has been going on my entire life. Yeah man sheep dogs, it's a thing... one dude working a couple thousand sheep, dogs, that's how they manage them. If you made any kind of rule saying working dogs had to be in verbal control or on a leash for that matter you would defacto be banning sheep herding. Kinda like banning the use of dogs to hunt mt. lions... (which also are allowed to run on public land off leash, and not in direct verbal control of their owner... to say nothing of bird dogs. I'm not allowed to walk my corgi in Denver without a leash but he comes off leash the second we get in the woods, location matters, these herders aren't managing a flock in LODO.

I'm not trying to get your goat, and I apologize for my tone, but for me it's reminiscent of people moving to CO from CA and ... "Oh those poor black bears why do people hunt them, that seems cruel let's have a ballot initiate," never mind the historical context, or trying to understand what's going on, or the local culture. Sure, domestic sheep spread diseases that knock the piss out of wild sheep and they need to be taken off the landscape, but in a structured thoughtful manner.

We don't want a dog ban or some other ridiculous legislation that has crappy unintended consequences, we do want to have a face to face with herders; talk to them about how their historic range is now becoming high use, that incidents are going to increase... for which they will be liable, and about the damage domestics do to native sheep and see what can be done to close down/move/ mitigate the potential problems for both users groups. It's harder to do it this way than just booting them out, but I think it's the right way to approach it.

 

[Colorado kid]

I'm not saying I totally disagree... I'm just kinda cracking up because this is just something that has been going on my entire life. Yeah man sheep dogs, it's a thing... one dude working a couple thousand sheep, dogs, that's how they manage them. If you made any kind of rule saying working dogs had to be in verbal control or on a leash for that matter you would defacto be banning sheep herding. Kinda like banning the use of dogs to hunt mt. lions... (which also are allowed to run on public land off leash, and not in direct verbal control of their owner... to say nothing of bird dogs. I'm not allowed to walk my corgi in Denver without a leash but he comes off leash the second we get in the woods, location matters, these herders aren't managing a flock in LODO.

I'm not trying to get your goat, and I apologize for my tone, but for me it's reminiscent of people moving to CO from CA and ... "Oh those poor black bears why do people hunt them, that seems cruel let's have a ballot initiate," never mind the historical context, or trying to understand what's going on, or the local culture. Sure, domestic sheep spread diseases that knock the piss out of wild sheep and they need to be taken off the landscape, but in a structured thoughtful manner.

We don't want a dog ban or some other ridiculous legislation that has crappy unintended consequences, we do want to have a face to face with herders; talk to them about how their historic range is now becoming high use, that incidents are going to increase... for which they will be liable, and about the damage domestics do to native sheep and see what can be done to close down/move/ mitigate the potential problems for both users groups. It's harder to do it this way than just booting them out, but I think it's the right way to approach it.

I don't mean to get your goat either but your "let's do what's best for everyone" stance reminds ME of someone from California. It seems pretty basic to me......BLM is PUBLIC land. It's OUR land and I shouldn't be concerned that I will be surrounded and charged by 7-8 100lbs dogs and expected to laugh it off as a time old tradition. It's simply unacceptable no matter how long it has been going on. I would be all for finding a happy medium with the herders. Dogs under voice control is not a new thing and, in fact, it's very effective. Ever watched a border collie work? In my opinion, the use of Anatolian Shepherds is just lazy. Throw the biggest, most aggressive sheep dogs out there you can find, then retire to your little yurt or whatever you're sleeping in. On public land, that's not okay. Period.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I'm all about well trained dogs, mine is trained to do everything with hand signals as well as voice so that I can take him bow hunting and keep him under control and yeah my in-laws run cows... so I'm really familiar with working dogs. A border collie isn't going to do crap when a bear or lion comes into the flock in the middle of the night or during the day for that matter. Not sure what you would do other than hire 10 more guys, which would likely be cost prohibitive... definitely an argument for why cows are better.

Also seems like dogs are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issue in that industry.
https://www.5280.com/2012/03/herd-mentality

 

[Colorado kid]

I'm all about well trained dogs, mine is trained to do everything with hand signals as well as voice so that I can take him bow hunting and keep him under control and yeah my in-laws run cows... so I'm really familiar with working dogs. A border collie isn't going to do crap when a bear or lion comes into the flock in the middle of the night or during the day for that matter. Not sure what you would do other than hire 10 more guys, which would likely be cost prohibitive... definitely an argument for why cows are better.

Also seems like dogs are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issue in that industry.
https://www.5280.com/2012/03/herd-mentality

Seems to me like that the information in that article is more of a reason to punish these herb owners and not allow them free run of BLM land. I am all for immigrant workers but I am also all for treating them properly! Clearly the sheep herding industry is not.

As for the type of dog breeds....I have had Australian shepherds all of my adult life. I am very familiar with working dogs as well. My two current Aussies weigh around 40 and 50 pounds. They have chased off countless black bears that are after my chickens. Hunters regularly tree mountain lions with 3 75 pound hound dogs. 7 to 8 Anitolian Shepherds is just an overkill. If we had wolves or Grizzlies in Colorado, that would clearly be a different story....but the predators Colorado sheep herds have to worry about can be chased of with a beagles if he were pissed off enough. The biggest, most aggressive predators on Colorado BLM land are these "sheep dogs".

 

[Festus]

#PublicLandOwner #HuntLikeYouOwnIt #ThisLandIsYourLand #PublicLandHunting

...But...#ShareWithOthers

 

[Dinkshooter]

They are worthless mongrels and the only only reason I bought a Glock to carry with me backpacking and bow hunting.

 

[JDinMT]

I think a big part of the problem is the growing popularity of using such dogs. It seems years ago they were protective (saw more herding dogs back then too) and did their job but that aggression towards people was discouraged, now you got bunches of ill bred crap that are just plain mean with no sense. Over the years I've seen both but the latter are too frequent.

 

[dirtclod Az.]

Dog Attackes me.Dog wakes up dead!I own dogs.Dog Attackes me Dog Wakes up Dead

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Dog Attackes me.Dog wakes up dead!I own dogs.Dog Attackes me Dog Wakes up Dead

 

[Oak]

Also seems like dogs are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issue in that industry.

This is accurate.

Most folks don't want to see family ranches go out of business, but if you're a wild sheep advocate you don't want domestic sheep grazing on public lands in wild sheep habitat. I have actively pitched alternatives to domestic sheep producers for the last 2.5 years, which include moving to lower risk allotments, conversion to cattle where appropriate, and financial incentives to waive permits back and retool their operations. My efforts have been met with denial that domestic sheep pose any risk to bighorns under range conditions, claims that deer and bison are carrying the pathogens so we shouldn't worry about domestic sheep, and pressure put on the state wildlife agency by pro-ag legislators ("stand down on the bighorn sheep issue if you want a fee bill passed").

The disease science is clear enough to understand that effective separation of the two species is the only way to adequately protect bighorn sheep. Effective separation isn't accomplished by the use of best management practices and design criteria on allotments that overlap bighorn sheep range. Stray domestic sheep will always be an issue that can't be mitigated, and most allotments are remote enough and federal budgets tight enough that monitoring does not occur. Relying on self-reporting of incidents by permittees who could potentially lose their allotments for reporting incidents is absurd.

Here are some issues:

Two domestic sheep and 5 bighorn sheep on same hillside (not in same photo frame) on high risk BLM allotment outside of the grazing season, December 2013:




Nine domestic sheep and 5 bighorn sheep on high risk USFS allotment after the grazing season, October 2016:



Single domestic sheep with several bighorn sheep near, but outside boundary of high risk USFS allotment, August 2017:



Bighorn sheep with band of domestic sheep near, but outside, of mapped bighorn range, on high risk USFS allotment being mitigated with design criteria, July 2017:



Corn dumped on high risk BLM allotment in occupied bighorn habitat, as supplemental feed for domestic sheep. Allotment is in such poor condition that it cannot support the 15 days of grazing permitted on each pasture without supplemental feeding. Pronghorn were observed (but not photographed) feeding on corn. Also dead ewe not removed as required by design criteria, March 2018:






Hundreds of domestic sheep on a remote allotment that was closed by the USFS in 2009 to protect bighorn sheep, September 2018:



Single domestic ewe in bighorn sheep high use area, and at least 2.6 miles from the nearest active domestic sheep allotment, October 2018:



CPW proposed action in a bighorn sheep herd management plan that was just available for public comment last week:

In 2014, CPW was a signatory to a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) for Management of Domestic Sheep and Bighorn Sheep (Appendix C). The MOU was crafted over an 18-month period by the US Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, CPW, Colorado Department of Agriculture, and the Colorado Woolgrowers Association. The purpose of the MOU “is to provide general guidance for cooperation in reducing contact between domestic and bighorn sheep in order to minimize* potential interspecies disease transmission and to ensure healthy bighorn sheep populations while sustaining an economically viable domestic sheep industry in Colorado.” CPW remains committed to continued collaboration with area sheep producers and federal agency staff who work towards the mutually beneficial purpose described in the MOU.

It’s our intent to follow these recommendations by proactively eliminating bighorn sheep in the area that directly overlaps with the domestic sheep allotment in S-78. To accomplish this, CPW recommends that the GMU boundary for S-12/S-78 be modified, so that S-78 will include the portions of the DAU to the west of Hwy 91. S-12 would then be expanded to the North and encompass all of the Ten-Mile Range. Due to overlap with the Sugarloaf sheep allotment, bighorn in S-78 will be removed from this unit as long as the domestic sheep allotment is still active. This will happen by publicizing this intent and issuing disease management licenses to any hunter that can demonstrate to CPW that a bighorn sheep is present in this area. With this action, CPW is proactively managing to prevent interactions with domestic sheep much as feasibly possible. Additionally, we recommend that the Arkansas Allotment remains inactive.

It is absolutely unbelievable to me that CPW is proposing a management plan to eliminate a native species from its historical, alpine habitat on public land - the State mammal depicted on the patches on their shoulders - in deference to non-native, pathogen-carrying domestic livestock. I have also not been able to find the statutory obligation for CPW to "sustain an economically viable domestic sheep industry.

Here's another problem:
The defendants in this case, which was settled out of court with confidentiality, have received over half a million CO sportsman's license dollars from CPW since these assaults took place, for game damage claims of black bears killing their domestic sheep, largely on public land in occupied bighorn sheep habitat. This family also just hosted and donated the alcohol for the CPW Commission community barbeque after the Commission meeting a month ago.

Yep, just the tip of the iceberg.....

 

[Dinkshooter]

"I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice".

Dalton/Oak

 

[Dinkshooter]

Ooopps did I do that? Got a hold of the new proposed CPW patches for employee shirts and truck doors. Looks sharp.

 

[TheTone]

Sad stuff Oak. Do you know if any action was taken in your examples/pictures?

 

[----]

Good god that's depressing... I need to double down on some bighorn memberships.

 

[Oak]

Do you know if any action was taken in your examples/pictures?

#1 - The permittee was contacted as soon as the strays were reported, and he was able to gather them. I doubt there was any action beyond that, as they followed the terms of their permit by responding and removing them.

#2 - CPW searched for the strays when they were reported several days later, to no avail.

#3 - Report was weeks late, so no action.

#4 - Reported over a year later, no action.

#5 - Supplemental feeding is allowed in their permit, because the allotments are in such poor condition. Unsure if action was taken on the dead ewe. They have 24 hours to remove, so it's not clear if it had been dead longer than that. However, if I had not reported finding it, I doubt anything would have been done.

#6 & #7 - Reported a month ago and yesterday. Permittee was asked to remove sheep from closed allotment. Unknown if action will be taken. Don't know if the stray yesterday was located. If not, there will be no action taken.

 

[Oak]

That's quite an emblem, Dink. I'm going to publicly denounce that immediately, as you know damn well CPW is going to blame me for it....

 

[rtraverdavis]

Here's another problem:
The defendants in this case, which was settled out of court with confidentiality, have received over half a million CO sportsman's license dollars from CPW since these assaults took place, for game damage claims of black bears killing their domestic sheep, largely on public land in occupied bighorn sheep habitat. This family also just hosted and donated the alcohol for the CPW Commission community barbeque after the Commission meeting a month ago.

Whoa. Do sportsman/woman of Colorado know about this? Would it make a difference for CPW to hear what folks think? I mean, that is some dark, creepy stuff right there.

 

[Oak]

Whoa. Do sportsman/woman of Colorado know about this? Would it make a difference for CPW to hear what folks think? I mean, that is some dark, creepy stuff right there.

I don't think sportsmen know, and I don't think it would make a difference with CPW. There was no conviction, just a settlement. There was another case by several herders regarding wages and labor practices that was also settled out of court.

I don't really think that sportsmen generally understand the extent of the game damage program. I support game damage payments on private lands where the landowner provides reasonable hunting access (existing program). However, I cannot justify sportsmen paying hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for domestic livestock killed on public lands grazing allotments. The herders have the authority to kill any predator killing or harassing their wildlife. Why should reimbursement for bear predation on USFS lands be the responsibility of sportsmen?

 

[Oak]

Here's some back and forth banter in the LTEs recently:

Sheep grazing is hurting the Weminuche.

Instant sheep expert, I don't think so.

Who wants sheep poop in their water?

 

[LuketheDog]

If you made any kind of rule saying working dogs had to be in verbal control or on a leash for that matter you would defacto be banning sheep herding. Kinda like banning the use of dogs to hunt mt. lions...

All the lion dogs I've seen are much better-trained than the sheep dogs I've had encounters with, if the shepherd can't control their dogs, well, they shouldn't have the dogs. A verbal-control law is just fine in my book if it gets the sheep dogs under control along with all the clowns from the city who think it's ok to let their family pet run amok in the woods because "he'd never hurt a fly!" Last summer I saw a dog chasing a cow moose and her calf down a trail at a full run while the dog's owners had no idea it was even going on.