I would try and video it first. I suspect that the meanest possible dog, once dead, will have been the gentlest most loving dog ever from the owners point of view. It may become a he said/she said contest with the local law enforcement.
BLM land and aggressive sheep dogs
- Thread starter Colorado kid
- Start date
Colorado kid
Member
I have access to several judges in the county I live in. I asked and was told that if it's public land and the dogs are not on a leash, I have every right to defend myself however I see fit. That's the answer I expected to hear. How on earth could it be any other way?
375H&H
Well-known member
You may have gotten a different answer from a judge in Boulder as dogs probably have more rights than humans there...just sayin.
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PrairieHunter
Well-known member
After thinking about this I have come up with a simple solution. Time for hunting in the 84 Sheep Dog.
[video=youtube;5SbXiMHjT0Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SbXiMHjT0Y[/video]
[video=youtube;5SbXiMHjT0Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SbXiMHjT0Y[/video]
Colorado kid
Member
If only I had that this past weekend!!
SDS14
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2016
- Messages
- 68
Let's not forget that "our land" is open to sheep and cattle grazing...right? Correct me if I am wrong but, I thought grazing was part of the "many uses" of public land. Maybe I am bias because my grandpa was a sheepherder and his sheep summer grazed on public land in Utah. I too have had my fair share of sheep dog encounters. They were doing there job protecting the herd of sheep as I approached a herd. I wound never shoot one unless it attacked me. However I would bear-spray the hell out it if it was aggressive.
As far as sheep dogs chasing wildlife or being aggressive towards hikers, hunters, fishermen, etc. We need to do our part and report this incidents to USFS, BLM and Fish and Game.
As far as sheep dogs chasing wildlife or being aggressive towards hikers, hunters, fishermen, etc. We need to do our part and report this incidents to USFS, BLM and Fish and Game.
Colorado kid
Member
Of course....our public lands are for everyone!! So is the park down the street from my house. That does not give me the right to drop my kids of at the park with several aggressive guard dogs , off leash, to protect them. I am shocked at how many people on here think that it's okay and the right of the sheep herder to allow a pack of 100+ lb dogs to roam freely chasing off anything that is not a sheep on our public lands. This seems like a no brainer to me.
I would try and video it first. I suspect that the meanest possible dog, once dead, will have been the gentlest most loving dog ever from the owners point of view. It may become a he said/she said contest with the local law enforcement.
You have the right to defend yourself.
The dogs are doing what they're bred to do. They're not pets, and are trained to stop threats from the flock.
It's a recipe ripe for conflict since the grazers have a right to up there, just as you do. From a conservation standpoint, the grazers are doing good by bringing in dogs to avoid predation loss & undue death to species like lions and bears. From a practical standpoint - you're gonna run in to dogs that hate things other than their handlers and sheep.
Get the video, take the necessary actions to protect yourself and document it if you can. Both you and the grazers have rights. Their rights end when their property (dogs) are not playing nice and begin threatening you.
The dogs are doing what they're bred to do. They're not pets, and are trained to stop threats from the flock.
It's a recipe ripe for conflict since the grazers have a right to up there, just as you do. From a conservation standpoint, the grazers are doing good by bringing in dogs to avoid predation loss & undue death to species like lions and bears. From a practical standpoint - you're gonna run in to dogs that hate things other than their handlers and sheep.
Get the video, take the necessary actions to protect yourself and document it if you can. Both you and the grazers have rights. Their rights end when their property (dogs) are not playing nice and begin threatening you.
WildWill
Well-known member
Amen
Crappy situation with no real good outcome. But it’s pretty straight forward you have to ask yourself are you willing to shoot one or more of those dogs and risk a further confrontation with the herder. If yes strap on your pistol and go hunting if no time to find a new spot. I know personally if I felt threatened there would be a dead dog. But if they stayed 15 feet away and I didn’t feel that they were an actual threat just causing a commotion and being a nuisance (which sounds more like what you described) I would pack up and find a new spot. The last thing I would do is wait for a game warden, law enforcement, BLM person, or any official to solve the problem that will be a long wait.
bisblue
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2016
- Messages
- 254
It is worth noting to the land manager. It goes into a case file as a formal complaint. Most of the sheep herders here in Nevada are brought in from South America and work the season, sometimes managing multiple herds. I saw some this year, but at a long distance on a bull hunt.
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LuketheDog
Well-known member
Haha, yeah, another continent and a different type of sheep...
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
I definitely think that raising sheep on public land is an antiquated system and that we should try and remove sheep from the landscape in order to restore native species, i.e. big horns. That being said many of these ranching families have been carrying on this profession for hundreds of years. I have a good friend in WY whose family is Basque and they have been raising sheep on their property and the abutting NF and BLM lands for 5 generations. They have always used Anatolian Sheppards. Only in the last 5 years or so has pronghorn hunting become so popular that now there are issue with hunters (until recently it was almost an OTC unit there were so many left over tags) Is his family supposed to change over a hundred years of historical use to accommodate hunters who are only there a few weeks a year?
I grew up in Eagle County, CO and have numerous encounters with sheep herders and dogs... my parents just taught me to share the land and given the flocks a wide berth, even if that meant hiking my bike 1/2 a mile. My mom I went to spread some of my dad's ashes on the mountain behind our house a couple of months ago and had to skirt around a big flock of sheep with dogs, wasn't a big deal we didn't have any issues.
Lot of NRs on this thread making some pretty insensitive comments about hard working families trying to scratch out a living. If you are getting close enough to a sheep dog that you feel like you are in danger that is on you, you screwed up, own that mistake don't shoot someones dog.
I think it's worth listening to the meateater podcast 132 with Gary Thornton, Garrett Long, and Clay Brewer of the Wild Sheep Foundation. They discuss the foundations efforts to remove sheep from the landscape, they try to be partners with herders and work to get them to remove sheep from big horn habitat voluntarily.
Please leave your handguns and bad attitudes at home if you are coming to CO to hunt, conservation success stories are going to be made through dialogue and compromise, shooting someone's animal only makes the job harder.
I grew up in Eagle County, CO and have numerous encounters with sheep herders and dogs... my parents just taught me to share the land and given the flocks a wide berth, even if that meant hiking my bike 1/2 a mile. My mom I went to spread some of my dad's ashes on the mountain behind our house a couple of months ago and had to skirt around a big flock of sheep with dogs, wasn't a big deal we didn't have any issues.
Lot of NRs on this thread making some pretty insensitive comments about hard working families trying to scratch out a living. If you are getting close enough to a sheep dog that you feel like you are in danger that is on you, you screwed up, own that mistake don't shoot someones dog.
I think it's worth listening to the meateater podcast 132 with Gary Thornton, Garrett Long, and Clay Brewer of the Wild Sheep Foundation. They discuss the foundations efforts to remove sheep from the landscape, they try to be partners with herders and work to get them to remove sheep from big horn habitat voluntarily.
Please leave your handguns and bad attitudes at home if you are coming to CO to hunt, conservation success stories are going to be made through dialogue and compromise, shooting someone's animal only makes the job harder.
Colorado kid
Member
Colorado born and raised......i do not think having aggressive dogs, on ANY "public" land is acceptable. I understand your point but I believe there has to be a middle ground somewhere. If I am hunting on public land and wake up surrounded by a flock and their dogs, how is that on me? I will absolutely carry my pistol and defend myself if necessary. But ONLY if necessary. Keep in mind that both interfering with a hunter and "molestation" of wildlife are felonies in this state. It is not a difficult thing to staybwith your flock and your dogs....and keep them under some sort of human control. My opinion anyway.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
It's an antiquated way of raising livestock for sure, would absolutely blow your mind if you new how many dep. bear tags some of those sheepherders use in a summer. The thing I'm trying to stress is just that there are people who have been doing things the same way they always have and now all of a sudden there has been an explosion of people up in the mountains. Sure you can't interfere with a hunter, but that guy has been taking his flock into that meadow every summer his entire life, just as his dad and his dad's dad did. Is he supposed to move somewhere else because one weekend in august you choose that meadow to hunt? He can't just take 1000 sheep somewhere else, you can easily hunt somewhere else.
I my mind my hobby never takes precedence over someone else's means of feeding their family. Would love to work with that land owner as part of RMBS to convert to cows, or figure out a means of buying him out of the sheep industry, or something... but that guy has mouths to feed and you can't just cut his legs out from under him. He didn't do anything wrong the world just changed around him.
BrentD
Well-known member
You could apply that same line of thinking to strip mining for coal on public lands too. (And dozens of other larger and smaller scenarios as well).
I've never come across a flock of sheep but if i did, I would be fine with skirting around them. However, if I still had issues with a sheep dog while skirting, I'll might be a bit unhappy about it.
I have encountered many head of cattle in National Forest where they were not supposed to be at that time. Plenty of them were "missed" by the round-up so they could gain a few more weeks of unauthorized, unpaid for, grazing. The USFS people I talked to were pretty POed about it and one told me to shoot everyone of them I found - which I did by pointing my finger and yelling "Bang, your dead!". That impressed the heck out of the cattle and solved everything
It's a crowded world out there, and a changing world. There are countless things you used to be able to do that you cannot do anymore. Just look at today's headlines for examples.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
I see what you did there, ^ ... also you made me spill my coffee so thanks...
You raise a great point, and change is necessary but I think there are lots of solutions that are often not explored because people aren't willing to knock on a door shake someones hand and just listen for a while.
lastlight
Well-known member
Don't be scared of killing a dog on public land, dont feel guilty that it is someones pet/work companion. If in fact you feel threatened at any level, or you see them harassing wildlife, do what you got to do and move on. Everyone rants and raves about shooting coyotes and wolves like its no big deal. Well dogs are wolves....sheep grazing in wild sheep country shouldnt be taking place anyways, buy wool only sourced from New Zealand, but thats another topic.
Colorado kid
Member
I hear exactly what you're saying and I am certainly sympathetic, however; as I mentioned, when I started this thread, we showed up at 4am (still very dark) to a very clearly marked public trail head (posted signs even required that ALL dogs be on a leash) and 50 yards down the trail we were literally surrounded by several pissed off dogs that sounded very large. There was no human presence of any kind. I know this because I announced that we were there, loudly, several times with no response but growling and barking. I imagine that if you decided to take your young child or grandchild hunting and ran into the same situation, you would feel very differently. We then sat on a high spot and watched these dogs chase off every single living thing that wasn't a sheep. Bulls, cows, moo cows, humans....literally everything. We watched the herder show up on horseback, threw some food down, checked us out with a set of binoculars, then left. That is simply unacceptable. I agree with BrentD.....times change and we are all expected to change along with those times. Sheep herders are not exempt. The last thing I want to do is effect someone's way of feeding their families. There is a lot of land out there......they had no business guarding a marked trail and subsequently, the BLM officer in charge of the area made him move his flock. There is a middle ground here and, in my opinion, it's having a human in control of the dogs at all times. Period. I am not allowed to place off leash dogs in the street in front of my house to protect my family. A heard of sheep should not be exempt from these laws.
