BLM, Forest Service and Nevada Ranchers

[Straight Arrow]

'No difference ... they're all "jackbooted thugs", all them gubment employees. They're agin us and want to take away all our freedoms, all them freedoms what are our rights ... cuz we wuz lucky enough to be born on US soil. They want us to pay taxes, follow regulations, and respect authority. Well ... they can't take away our Constitutional right to pursue happiness by doing whatever we damn well please ... and those fools who pay taxes, obey the laws, contribute to society, volunteer to put their lives on the line to protect our national interests, and other gubment military folks just don't get the Constitution like us and Bundy do. We don't need to go to work ... we need to go to Nevada and demonstrate for our rights. We have the freedom to do that. After all, when we get back home if the paycheck is a little short or not there at all, we can get our food stamps, extended unemployment benefits, some welfare, food handouts, and get along just dandy. It's our right ... ain't it?

 

[Elkmagnet]

I believe your reading comprehension could use some work.
I said this.

Originally Posted by elkmagnet
So ranching does more good than harm to wildlife?
Any sheep hunters on this site have thoughts on that?

You said this?

I'm willing to bet yes, ranching in the SW is more beneficial for wildlife than wind and solar farms and oil fields.

Following me?

 

[Zach]

Zach, could you please let us all know why we should side with Mr. Bundy. Please be specific.

I guess when I say I don't know who's right or who's wrong that's not plain enough. I never said side with Mr. Bundy.

I haven't done the research like so many here, so I don't know.

Just an observation, that apparently gets a few vocal folks riled up.

 

[BuzzH]

I could care less about the Paiute indians. The man did not pay his fees for 20 years and all of a sudden a couple hundred steroid pumping wannabe soldiers show up fully armed and sick the hounds on him? Yes I am willing to let my blood flow Buzz and yours too if it stops the insanity of Amerika's swat team hysteria. The government has no right to put protestors in a 200 x 200 square and limit them to 25 people at a time. It also has no right to confiscate weapons from people just because they are afraid of violence maybe starting. It is not about the tortoise or the grazing or the money. It is about how the government is militarizing it's control of the people.

Remember last year during the government shutdown? Every boat ramp, campground and forest road was shut down. I saw armed USFS cops at every ramp. Never saw one of those lazy asses in 50 years here. Was that to save money? No, that was to step the boot on the neck of the citizens to exact pain and compliance. You carry on.

Ringer, first off, go back and reread who said what about your "bloodshed" comment, as it wasnt me that mentioned anything about it. Not shocking that comprehension is a struggle for you.

What I find the most predictable and ridiculous about your whole "arguement" here is that you swing and miss at every opportunity as to addressing the real "problem".

The whole fuggin' situation could have been avoided if Bundy would have just paid his bills. He's a deadbeat and a thief who feels he is "owed" something from the Government. A true entitlement welfare rancher. He's as far from a patriot as a shoplifter or bankrobber. An a-hole wearing a cowboy hat is still an a-hole, he's no hero.

What I find odd is that hundreds, if not thousands, of other BLM leasee's work in cooperation with the BLM, pay their bills, and have no trouble. Wonder why that is? Maybe, just maybe, they dont feel entitled and understand the law. They likely also pay their freight like most other U.S. Citizens with an IQ higher than their hat size.

Bundy has used the U.S. legal system, he's used U.S. Property for 2 decades free of charge, and now he's using a bunch of fake "patriots", just like you, in his final lame attempt at getting something for nothing.

How does it feel to be used by a common criminal?

 

[mtmiller]

I guess when I say I don't know who's right or who's wrong that's not plain enough. I never said side with Mr. Bundy.

I haven't done the research like so many here, so I don't know.

Just an observation, that apparently gets a few vocal folks riled up.

gotcha....thanks.

 

[mdhunter]

I read this thread from front to back trying to understand the "locals" perspective. I guess I will just side with the folks that agree with stopping payments to the BLM and losing multiple times in court ought to give you a general idea that your heading down the wrong path.

Do I think that our government has become very large and very burdensome to some businesses, yup. I sell petroleum for a living and deal with it every day. We now have the distinct pleasure of the EPA checking behind the various state inspectors. It seems like a waste to me however I realize that if it is truly a waste, sooner or later it will be fixed. I also realize that a majority of the laws are written for a pretty common sense reason (I will go with 90%, lol). Opting out may be convenient but isn't legal or acceptable to your fellow citizens.

To everyone out there who has a problem with the word "Feds", please lighten up a little. I used the word fed in a previous thread to save a few key strokes and everyone who has their paycheck signed by Uncle Sam freaks out. Geezzz.

 

[noharleyyet]

Euthanized turtles, Dingy Harry acorn metaphors, million dollar clusterfark cowboy sub contractors, 50K per year unpaid grazing fees for 150 to 900 head of cattle, mid terms approaching...this Tort'is Circlejerque is far from over.

 

[Southwind]

I believe Bundy is in the wrong but would like a little help in understanding where his grievance comes from.

I know they never had deed to Bunkerville but what was the 1887 agreement they had? What rights did they purchase and what was the term and details of the agreement?

I am assuming that Bunkerville was open range (federal land) and these agreements were grazing agreements? Were these rights to the property open ended and eternal rights or what?

Did the 1934 Taylor grazing act make any prior agreement null and void?

I mean these are all sweet heart deals anyway, I can't believe anyone would jeopardize losing them. Ranchers in Kansas can only dream about these kind of grazing leases.

 

[Big Fin]

I believe Bundy is in the wrong but would like a little help in understanding where his grievance comes from.

I know they never had deed to Bunkerville but what was the 1887 agreement they had?

No agreement. Or, if such exists, no one can find documents to support it and none have been provided in any of the court cases where Bundy applied his legal theories. Seems if someone had supposedly paid for such, they would have documentation to support such.

I can go back and find deeds in Montana that date back to that same time period. We are working on a land easement swap that has deeds going back to Montana becoming a state.

What rights did they purchase and what was the term and details of the agreement?

None were purchased. Or again, if such was purchased, nobody seems to have record or documentation to support it.

I am assuming that Bunkerville was open range (federal land) and these agreements were grazing agreements? Were these rights to the property open ended and eternal rights or what?

The land was "open range" at one time, which is why all the ranchers were asking for some sort of system to keep people from hammering the public grounds. The response was the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934. That was legislation asked for by the western ranchers.

Nothing Bundy ever had was in perpetuity. Public grazing leases are never in perp.

The grazing lease I am working on for a client has a ten year term. Not sure what term his had, but I suspect something similar. It is very obvious that no rights are provided under that agreement and it is a contract that allows the landower to use the grass on the leased ground, and that is all that conveys for the fee paid.

I went and read the court decisions that Bundy was involved in. What a laugher. The claims he makes were almost funny, but the court did not find them the least bit funny. The court decision ended up with a summary judgement decision issued to the BLM. To lose a decision by summary judgement usually means you were "out in the weeds" as it relates to your legal theory.

 

[Southwind]

Thanks for the information, it seems part of the story I have not been able to find.

 

[ismith]

I believe your reading comprehension could use some work.
I said this.

Originally Posted by elkmagnet
So ranching does more good than harm to wildlife?
Any sheep hunters on this site have thoughts on that?

You said this?




Following me?

I don't have the time or patience to drive out to Idaho and pound my point into your thick skull. Work on your own reading comprehension.

 

[big28hunter]

What will it cost when all of the other ranchers stop paying because they don't feel like it?

Do you know how much money is spent every year on illegal aliens in our medical, prison, and handout systems? "BILLIONS" Take him to court and if he doesn't pay his grazing fees put him in jail. Simple solution to the problem!

 

[1_pointer]

Fin- If my memory thingy's not broken, 10 years is the maximum term for a BLM grazing permit. They can be shorter, but I am not aware of any that can be or are longer.

You are correct on the summary judgement. That means that the courts did not find sufficient need to hear your arguments in direct testimony.

NHY- He is not on the hook for $50K/year. That's the total amount that's accrued due to higher fees for willful trespass. Willfull tresspass, IIRC, is calculated as 3X the state average for the leasing of private grazing. The average price for private grazing leases, again IIRC, comes from one of the agencies in USDA and is changed/adjusted if need be on an annual basis. That can be in addition to admin (including employee time) costs that can be added to a trespass bill. These are highly negotiable between the trespasser and the authorized officer.

 

[noharleyyet]

You are correct, according to the math, it's 55K...plus the golden hammer rodeo.

 

[shoots-straight]

Do you know how much money is spent every year on illegal aliens in our medical, prison, and handout systems? "BILLIONS" Take him to court and if he doesn't pay his grazing fees put him in jail. Simple solution to the problem!

I've seen the correlation brought up about illegal aliens on every other hunting site there is. One does not justify the other. If you are so upset about he illegals then organize with all the others out there and protest.

Again, that does not justify what Bundy and the so called Patriots were doing.

 

[Straight Arrow]

1_pointer, I assume you are an attorney well-versed in this area of law. If your intent is clarification, that is fine. If it is to nitpick statements to somehow support Bundy's position ... then not-so-fine. If your intent is to remain factual and objective, that is okay. It would help to clarify that.

If you are privy to the details and detailed information concerning this issue, then further explanation from you would be helpful. On the other hand, if you do not know how the $1million + owed by Bundy was calculated and by whom, then perhaps you could research and find out.

It is good to get accurate information, however this issue seems to be polarized due to information being manipulated to distort one view or another. Concurrently the myths concerning property rights, states rights, and how people's Constitutional rights are supposedly being infringed upon only add to the distortion.
In my opinion, focus on the violation of law, rules, and regulations, as already adjudicated, is the crux of the issue.

 

[mtmiller]

On the other hand, if you do not know how the $1million + owed by Bundy was calculated and by whom, then perhaps you could research and find out.

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/re...ns/national_instruction/2014/IM_2014-061.html

 

[howler]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/04/12/The-Saga-of-Bundy-Ranch

some interesting reading,

 

[ringer]

So, the BLM is planning a raid on the ranch and homes of the Bundys. All of the people who earn a living off the federal tax rolls will say the killing was totally justified and the welfare sucking rancher and his kids deserved to die. The rest of us will clearly understand that the federal government is only here to help us. End of a tragic and idiotic story perpetuated by total idiots.

 

[sbhooper]

Here is a bit on the involvement of Slimey Harry in this whole thing.

The below listed article with the links will enlighten you about how a corrupt Senator Reid was behind the land grab of the Bundy Ranch. It turns out that Neil Kornze who was raised in Elko, Nevada, and was a former senior advisor on Majority Leader, Senator Harry Reid’s staff, joined the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in 2011 and had been leading the agency as the Principal Deputy Director; he was subsequently formally appointed Director of the Bureau of Land Management, by a US Senate vote of 71 to 28. The BLM overseas more than 245 million acres of public lands nationwide, including 48 million acres in Nevada. So why did Senator Reid’s aide who owed his appointment to his old boss go after Cliven Bundy’s cattle ranch that had been in the Bundy family since 1870?

It turns out that in 2012, Harry Reid’s son, Rory Reid who is lawyer with the prominent Harvey Whittemore law firm in Las Vegas, became the chief representative for a Chinese Communist Energy Giant, ENN Energy Group. Journalist Marcus Stern with Reuters reported that Senator Reid was heavily involved in a “DEAL,” as well as his oldest son Rory Reid who works for Harvey Whittemore. Rory and his father were both involved in an effort to get the Chinese Communist Energy Giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion utility scale solar energy facility and panel manufacturing plant in the Nevada desert (instead of helping a US energy company benefit from such a development, Harry Reid imported Communists to do own land in Nevada and develop a utility scale solar energy plant). Marcus Stern wrote that that Senator Reid has been the most prominent advocate of recruiting the Communist Chinese Energy Giant, ENN Energy Group on his trip to Communist China in 2011; it was the same time frame when Senator Reid placed his senior senate advisor, Neil Kornze, in the BLM as the Principal Deputy Director. Marcus Stern reported that Harry Reid applied his political muscle on behalf of developing the Chinese Communist project in Nevada. Then in 2012, Rory Reid facilitated the Chinese Communist Energy Giant, ENN Energy Group in developing plans to build the $5 billion solar plant on public land in Nevada by helping the ENN Energy Group locate a 9000 acre desert site that it planned to buy well below the going market value of land sold by Clark County; you see Rory Reid was formerly Chairman of the Clark County Commission and facilitated the deal.

Unfortunately the problem with the area was that the 908 head of cattle in the herd on 67 year old Cliven Bundy’s family Bundy Ranch roamed and grazed free as they had been doing since the 1870, their grazing on open range would interfere with the Chinese Communist Energy Giant, ENN Energy Group’s solar field. So Rory Reid, working with Neil Kornze, trumped up the bogus charge that the grazing cattle were destroying an endangered species, the desert tortoise. The desert tortoise were proliferating (they were not in danger), despite the fact that the cattle from the Bundy Ranch had been grazing in their habitant for over 140 years, in fact the Interior Department had implemented euthanasia of the desert tortoise to keep the population from getting out of control. The BLM’s official reason for encircling the Bundy Ranch and family with sniper teams and helicopters was to protect the endangered desert tortoise which the Interior Department had been killing in mass for some time. Journalist Dana Loesch wrote “The tortoise wasn’t of concern when US Senator Harry Reid worked with the BLM and his former senior aide, Neil Kornze, who was now in charge of the BLM when they were literally changing the boundaries of the tortoise habitat to accommodate the development plans of the Communist Chinese Energy Giant, ENN Energy Group and the second most powerful man in Nevada, after Senator Reid, Harvey Whittemore,” who just happened to be the employer for Rory Reid’s and Rory’s three brothers (Harry Reid’s four sons).

Unfortunately the left of center liberal media establishment spun the story so Americans would view Cliven Bundy as grossly violating federal regulations and a law breaker, not the true story of how a corrupt Harry Reid was facilitating a Communist Chinese Energy Giant to come into the United States, displacing any possibility of a US Energy Company from getting to develop solar energy in Nevada, and arranged for the Communists to get ownership of US public land in Nevada below the going market price, while using Gestapo-style tactics to illegally remove a Patriotic Cattle Rancher off the land his family owned since the 1870s in violation of the rights accorded him by the US Constitution, the 10th Amendment, and the Bill of Rights. It should have been a story about the overreach by another bloated, corrupt, and out of control bureaucracy that was doing absolutely nothing to manage the overgrowth on public land that they were supposed to be doing, while in fact, the cattle from the Bundy Ranch were feeding on the overgrowth keeping the overgrowth under control. The principle and courageous stand by Cliven Bundy in the face of an oppressive BLM and the prosecution by Holder’s Justice Department, while fining him $1 million, illegally rustling 400 cattle of his herd, surrounding his family with snipers, knocking down his pregnant daughter-in-law, grinding Clive’s head into the dirt with boots on his head, arresting his son for taking photos of the Gestapo-type tactics, and tazing his son three times, etc. Cliven Bundy’s principled stand was a Seminole event, Patriotic Americans from all over the Republic mobilized, rode to the aide of the rancher with American flags flying, and supported the Bundy Ranch against an out of control government bureaucracy. When Neil Kornze realized the magnitude of the opposition he and Reid engendered from throughout the Republic, resulting in over 3000+ armed Americans who had arrived on the Bundy Ranch (with thousands more enroute), in opposition to his 200 federal armed guards, Kornze released the 400 rustled cattle he intended to sell, and pulled his 200 federal armed guards back from the brink of an armed conflict with very angry American citizens from throughout the Republic, who now had their own snipers in place at the ranch aimed at the 200 federal armed guards. This attempt at grand larceny by the BLM, and violation of Cliven Bundy’s freedoms all Americans are accorded by the US Constitution requires a Congressional investigation and actions in the courts to charge the BLM. We wonder if the Republican leadership in Congress will do anything about this attempt by an agency of the US Government to support a group in Nevada commit grand larceny on behalf of the Chinese Communists Energy Giant, or will they just let it ride, and hope it goes away?







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