Bison ESA listing review

[kwyeewyk]

Caught this article a couple weeks ago, don't remember seeing anything about it here on HT, figured it's an interesting topic considering recent relisting of wolves, and the concept of recovery across entire historic range. Will be interesting to see how this one goes.

Judge orders USFWS to re-examine bison ruling

 

[TheTone]

For me it’s an easy argument that they occupy far less of their original range and in lower numbers than wolves do.

 

[hossblur]

For me it’s an easy argument that they occupy far less of their original range and in lower numbers than wolves do.

Im pretty sure you can add elk to that as well

 

[antlerradar]

Im pretty sure you can add elk to that as well

Mule deer are not far behind.

 

[Jason73]

Im pretty sure you can add elk to that as well

100% truth.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Per the wolf thread hard no.

The ESA should be reserved for imperiled species, bison aren’t going extinct anytime soon. 500k ? on the landscape.

States should manage them, stakeholders should be involved in any future expansion, I would love more bison on the landscape, I would love to hunt one, but they are a PITA.

 

[mtmiller]

Bunch of hybrids.

 

[kwyeewyk]

What worries me with this one is that the primary goal of the petition is to end hunting and culling of bison that leave the park. But it does seem like the process could provide a current contrast to how wolves are being handled.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

What worries me with this one is that the primary goal of the petition is to end hunting and culling of bison that leave the park. But it does seem like the process could provide a current contrast to how wolves are being handled.

Pandora’s box

 

[lpcoutdoors]

100% truth.

And Bobwhite quail

 

[TheTone]

Per the wolf thread hard no.

The ESA should be reserved for imperiled species, bison aren’t going extinct anytime soon. 500k ? on the landscape.

States should manage them, stakeholders should be involved in any future expansion, I would love more bison on the landscape, I would love to hunt one, but they are a PITA.

Idaho state management has them shot on sight by department of ag. That’s working out great for the species. The only stakeholders involved are cattlemen

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Idaho state management has them shot on sight by department of ag. That’s working out great for the species. The only stakeholders involved are cattlemen

I'm just saying it's the "endangered species act" not the "endangered population segment act"

 

[LuketheDog]

My, this is starting to look like a very slippery slope...

Im pretty sure you can add elk to that as well

Mule deer are not far behind.

And Bobwhite quail

 

[elkduds]

Bunch of hybrids.

I'm just saying it's the "endangered species act" not the "endangered population segment act"

Raises the question: How pure does a species have to be, through the lens of ESA? Most bison have slivers of bovine genetics, which they no doubt consider neanderthal.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Raises the question: How pure does a species have to be, through the lens of ESA? Most bison have slivers of bovine genetics, which they no doubt consider neanderthal.

@BrentD What's the Zoology 101 explanation here?

What is a species?

Bison versus cows, they can obviously interbreed.
Wolves versus Dogs
Gray Wolf versus Mexican or Red Wolf
Wolf versus fox ?

Is this easy to sort out?

 

[elkduds]

@BrentD What's the Zoology 101 explanation here?

What is a species?

Bison versus cows, they can obviously interbreed.
Wolves versus Dogs
Gray Wolf versus Mexican or Red Wolf
Wolf versus fox ?

Is this easy to sort out?

I don't know how much hybridization it takes to legally change a species, per the ESA. Genetically 100% pure bison are hard to come by, for instance. I understand the only genetically pure bison are descended directly from a small herd that survived the Great Plains eradication in the YNP area. Not interested in abstracting this beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[ccc23454]

In 1901 roughly 24 native bison in yellowstone, 1902 congress buys 21 bison from montana and texas livestock herds(18cows/3bulls). In 1910 the herd of previously domestic livestock was released into park and intermixed with resident herd. So the herd in the park is essentially the same genetic herd as all the bison ranches, you going to tell ranchers to cut fences since they now raise a endangered species? So 20-30k wild animals today of the roughly 500k bison in US, if they are genetically simular how can they be a ESA candidate? Additionally, they occupy all avaliable range to the point that hunting is permitted for the wild herds in 5 states i can think of. I know today with lawyer based wildlife management anything is possible but dam i miss the days of common sense...

 

[LopeHunter]

Im pretty sure you can add elk to that as well

And, Native Americans.

 

[kwyeewyk]

@BrentD What's the Zoology 101 explanation here?

What is a species?

Bison versus cows, they can obviously interbreed.
Wolves versus Dogs
Gray Wolf versus Mexican or Red Wolf
Wolf versus fox ?

Is this easy to sort out?

I'll be interested to hear Brent's answer, but my take from an ESA perspective is for the most part species are fairly easy to distinguish on a broad level, based on physiological traits which ultimately are an expression of genetics. Hybridization occurs at varying frequency across a population and is detectable and measurable.

Where it gets political for ESA is deciding what level of hybridization is acceptable to say these are the "pure" bison that have a low enough level of bovine genetics, and in this case, looking within the "pure" genetics to determine if there are 2 distinct populations, which is much less cut and dry than than determining what's a species.

One example is Columbia Basin pygmy rabbit, geographically Isolated subspecies determined to be a DPS, went extinct in the wild, last wild rabbits were captured for captive breeding, and the decision was made that the DPS had to be maintained pure since that is what the listing was for. Captive breeding failed until the decision was finally made to allow cross breeding with pygmy rabbits from Idaho. Immediate response in captive breeding success, and before long there's enough rabbits to start releasing back in the wild. Somewhere along the way, they started also directly relocating wild rabbits from other states into the wild without cross breeding them. Still a listed species as a DPS.

So clearly every case is treated differently based on circumstances and social/political tolerances, and there is no set standards for anything, which creates all the avenues for ambiguity.

 

[BrentD]

@BrentD What's the Zoology 101 explanation here?

What is a species?

Whoa, man, this is a philosophical question, much like debating whether the universe is, in any way, truly stochastic or if it all fixed and fated determinism.

Let's just say that it is undebatable that the ESA extends to unique subspecies and populations. For instance, the Mt. Graham Red Squirrel in SE Arizona is an ESA, though it is the same species as the red squirrel found from Alaska to Massachusetts. The Alabama Beach Mouse is another - though it is one of 5 sister subspecies of beach mice (all but one Endangered) and the very common interior Old field mouse. They are all in the species Peromyscus polionotus.

Bison versus cows, they can obviously interbreed.
Wolves versus Dogs
Gray Wolf versus Mexican or Red Wolf
Wolf versus fox ?

Is this easy to sort out?

No, - well yes, it is easy to describe with DNA analyses, this can be quantified and Bison vs cows, Wolves vs dogs, and Wolf vs Fox are simple. But when we get into flavors of wolves, things get messy because it becomes more like a gradient than well defined clusters. The problem isn't in quantifying the differences, but rather, drawing the lines in the sand.

Just for instance, y'all are part Neanderthal and almost certainly, y'all could still breed with them if they were still around (and if they'd have ya --- ). But that doesn't make them Homo sapiens nor us Homo neanderthalensis.

Suffice it to say, if you think you are going to do an end run around the ESA based on the possible (is this really a fact) minor genetic intrusion of domesticated bovine jeans, you are wasting your time, and mine, and everyone else's. It's been tried on far foggier species delineations than this and face planted every time.

You could do yourselves a favor if you threw out the ultra-simplistic definition of biological species that you learned in high school. It just doesn't work very well when getting down to the nuts and bolts of real-life biology.