Bill allowing crossbows during MT archery

[Ben Lamb]

I could easily be wrong, but I think that under MCA 87-1-301(6)(a), the commission already has the authority do this.

Rather than set these things in statute, perhaps the proponents of this bill should put together a proposal for the Fish & Wildlife Commission to look at.

 

[Sytes]

I could easily be wrong, but I think that under MCA 87-1-301(6)(a), the commission already has the authority do this.

Rather than set these things in statute, perhaps the proponents of this bill should put together a proposal for the Fish & Wildlife Commission to look at.

Up until Ben's post, my position grew towards the support of this bill. However, review of the MCA for FWP, I would rather this stay in our commission's hands than lobby bound legislators. (Edit: Eh, no offense Ben. )

(2) The commission may adopt rules regarding the use and type of archery equipment that may be employed for hunting and fishing purposes, taking into account applicable standards as technical innovations in archery equipment change.

(3) The commission may adopt rules regarding the establishment of special licenses or permits, seasons, conditions, programs, or other provisions that the commission considers appropriate to promote or enhance hunting by Montana's youth and persons with disabilities.

 

[RobG]

Thanks Ben

 

[BuzzH]

I could easily be wrong, but I think that under MCA 87-1-301(6)(a), the commission already has the authority do this.

Rather than set these things in statute, perhaps the proponents of this bill should put together a proposal for the Fish & Wildlife Commission to look at.

The proponents of the bill probably think they have a better chance with the legislature than the FWP Commission.

But, I agree that if it can be dealt with at the commission level it should be...and is a strong case to kill the bill.

 

[Ben Lamb]

None taken, Charles.

Good pick up on subs 2 & 3. I think that makes it pretty clear that this bill erodes commission authority, and the issue of crossbows should be dealt with at the commission level, using MBA's technology matrix.

Every session their are multiple bills that would usurp commission authority depending on the flavor of the month. February will be bills on trapping set backs, etc, that do this.

 

[grizzly_]

Educate me a little... What's the effective range of a crossbow verse a compound bow?

It seems obvious to my uninformed mind that crossbows would take far less practice to be proficient. Is this incorrect?

If crossbows take less dedication and expand effective ranges beyond archery equipment, we should proceed with caution, imho. Is there something that can be done to even the playing field with a modern compound bow via equipment regulations to prevent an unfair advantage?

 

[RobG]

The Bill's sponsor, Doug Kary, who had the lighted nock bill in 2017. If I understand it correctly, the commission pre-empted the vote by making the nocks legal.

On Ballotpedia Kary states:
Our Great Outdoors: Growing up hunting, fishing and just getting outdoors to recreate, Doug supports hunting in Montana as it is our heritage. Doug believes that veteran hunters and avid anglers should be on the Fish, Wildlife and Parks Commission so the interest of sportsmen and women are truly represented. Doug has been a long-time member of the NRA and will support and defend our 2nd Amendment rights against any issues that will restrict or limit the use of firearms.

 

[JLS]

The proponents of the bill probably think they have a better chance with the legislature than the FWP Commission.

But, I agree that if it can be dealt with at the commission level it should be...and is a strong case to kill the bill.

Agree on all counts. I’d oppose for these reasons alone.

 

[Mudranger1]

Deja Vu all over again. Last time proposed its was HB 176. Following is what I submit to the legislature.

Please oppose HB 176, this time SB 174, the crossbow bill.
Crossbows are already approved for hunting during the general season and before and after in Weapons Restriction Areas, thus a long season of opportunity is available for crossbow hunters.

Physical limitations of disabled hunters allow those hunters to acquire a Permit to Modify Archery Equipment to let them modify conventional archery equipment to hunt during the Archery Only Season. In fact, Montana Bowhunters Association assists disabled bowhunters in modifying their archery equipment and going afield to hunt.

Crossbows are more closely akin to rifles than archery bows. Crossbows shoot a short metal bolt, rather than an arrow. Crossbows, much like firearms, are mechanically cocked, then fired pulling a trigger. Crossbows employ a sighting system much like a rifle and often are equipped with optical scopes. The crossbow is much easier employed as a hunting weapon and, if allowed during the Archery Only Season, would significantly transform the challenging aspect of "archery" hunting.

No problem exists regarding opportunity for crossbow hunting. Please refrain from crafting legislation to solve problems which do not exist.

I'm just curious..and I'll put this out there that I dont hunt with a crossbow not do I own 1 and I'm not sure I have ever shot 1 that wasnt a toy. But that being said I would like anyone with an issue of crossbow hunting during archery season to show me some statistics that prove it has any real effect on harvest or whatever the reason you dont want them included. And to the point of it's more like a gun than a bow. Last I checked I shot my bow by pulling a trigger a 20" bolt that cant travel faster than let's just go high end numbers 400ft/sec is much more akin to my 28" arrow traveling 320ft/sec than a 1" bullet travelling at 3000 ft_sec

 

[dcopas78]

Educate me a little... What's the effective range of a crossbow verse a compound bow?

It seems obvious to my uninformed mind that crossbows would take far less practice to be proficient. Is this incorrect?

If crossbows take less dedication and expand effective ranges beyond archery equipment, we should proceed with caution, imho. Is there something that can be done to even the playing field with a modern compound bow via equipment regulations to prevent an unfair advantage?

TBH, I'm far more confident in a compound than a crossbow. I've shot plenty of deer with both. A crossbow, in my opinion, is way less accurate than a compound if you are used to shooting a compound. The range is also shorter. The bolts are heavier and as someone mentioned in the thread earlier, they drop like a rock. I've shot deer with a compound out to around 50 yards. I personally wouldn't attempt to shoot much past 40 yards with a crossbow. Granted, I haven't shot some of the high end crossbows out now, but I doubt they would change my opinion much.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Feedback from a Senate Fish & Game Committee member expressed that most comments received are in opposition to this bill.

 

[Straight Arrow]

... show me some statistics that prove it has any real effect on harvest or whatever the reason you dont want them included.

It really isn't the concern about effect on harvest or even the efficacy of the weapon. As a member of Montana Bowhunters Association, I am aware of the lengthy difficult process MBA went through to establish the current archery only season in Montana. That organization and others are concerned about crossbow and muzzleloader groups piggybacking onto the hard work of MBA and being included, even having separate seasons. We Montana hunters acknowledge that we are spoiled by the advantage of lengthy hunting seasons and are very protective of what we have enjoyed for so long ... but what seems to work. A general fear is that hunting access, seasons structure, and weapon preference rules would follow the trends of Colorado in that Montana would suddenly have Ranching for Wildlife, seasons for crossbows, muzzleloaders, and archery weapons becoming three separate seasons during what is now Archery Only, and thus "choose your weapon". Admittedly that seems self-directed, but it's real and it is a result of much advocacy on behalf of hunting, hunting access, and on behalf of wildlife.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Those who say there are no statistics need to go do their research.

Take a look at PA for example.

In PA it was a 50% increase in buck harvests during "Archery" season when they allowed crossbows to be used. That is not minor. That is a HUGE increase.

"No one’s raising any concerns about the effect of crossbows on Pennsylvania’s deer hunting landscape." - This statement is complete BS. A lot of people are concerned. Its all about the money and selling more licenses.

Trust me, at some point you will regret allowing crossbows into your archery season.

IMHO they should be used by the disabled (With a permit) and the elderly. ONLY.

https://www.outdoornews.com/2013/11/05/in-pa-crossbow-deer-harvest-concerns-some/

https://lancasteronline.com/sports/...cle_64f9bf4a-ba75-11e8-bcaf-8b4d704746d0.html

 

[Gerald Martin]

With current allowances for draw-locks and other equipment modifications allowed for handicaped and medical necessity, I'm not sure how adding crossbows into the mix is going actually allow more opportunity. I see it as another step toward crossbows being added for everyone. If it was only the handicapped, I would have no problem. Trouble as I see it is the manufacturer's camel getting his nose under the tent....

 

[Estimator86]

Not sure if Illinois has been mentioned yet or not on the law creep side of things.. I agree that comparing midwest whitetail hunting with western elk hunting is for the birds, but I think it will ruin the archery season the same. Illinois started with the elderly/disabled law (which I supported). Pretty quickly a few people I knew had "injuries" that wouldn't be considered "disabled", but nonetheless hunted with a crossbow. I believe last year Illinois finally opened crossbows to EVERYONE (which I do not support). Now all of the weekend warriors could hunt archery and we all know what that does. So glad Illinois is in the rearview for me..

 

[VAspeedgoat]

This is an interesting article on meateater. It won't change any minds but it does answer some of the questions on this thread.

http://themeateater.com/hunt/archer...l-country?mc_cid=2f3f169e49&mc_eid=960ac97ace

 

[RobG]

https://ravincrossbows.com/

Right out of the box, after zeroing in the Ravin scope that comes standard with every crossbow sold, shooters can consistently achieve 3-inch groups at the length of a football field. And all that performance comes from a crossbow that measures just 6 inches from axle-to-axle when fully drawn.

I think this is better accuracy than achievable with smoothbore shotguns or even traditional muzzleloaders.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

The two things that struck me from the meat eater article were, crossbows are less controversial where there are very short rifle/gun seasons and where there are abundant deer. Which, as pointed out earlier are likely the two major differences between eastern and western states.

I also found it interesting that demand is increasing in Western States while hunter numbers are dropping in the east.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

https://ravincrossbows.com/




I think this is better accuracy than achievable with smoothbore shotguns or even traditional muzzleloaders.

You're right, and would definitely redefine "archery". The $2000 dollar price tag will keep this as the exception, not the rule.

 

[RobG]

You're right, and would definitely redefine "archery". The $2000 dollar price tag will keep this as the exception, not the rule.

$2000 is nothing for the nonresidents coming out here for a chance to kill a huge bull in the rut. And as technology and popularity increases that performance will be available at much lower prices.