Bi-partisan Effort to Improve Forest Management
- Thread starter BigHornRam
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BigHornRam
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Same group, similar but different forest, different imperiled critters, and different outcome.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/aug/08/colvilles-a-to-z-timber-project-can-move-forward-c/
Winning!
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/aug/08/colvilles-a-to-z-timber-project-can-move-forward-c/
Winning!
RobG
Well-known member
Different forest ya dingbat. I want to know how litigation prevented the previously logged areas in Rice Ridge from being "managed" so they wouldn't turn into "Rabbitat." That is the reason you claim it burned, but the rabbitat was caused by logging. So what gives?
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T
tjones
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Winning by big shake up?
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Boy Rob you are thick. Lynx habitat is called rabbitat. Dense stands that are inhabited by snowshoe hares. Get it? AWR is suing to keep the rabbitat. The Cottonwood decision has tied the USFS hands to manage lynx habitat, which the Seely Lake area is or should I say was premium. But it's not really about the lynx anyway.
RobG
Well-known member
Thanks - speaking of rabbitat, you seem to be dodging like a rabbit with a hound on its ass. For the umpteenth time, can you name some lawsuits that prevented management in the Rice Ridge area? I seriously don't know anything about this except you can't back up what you are saying, so methinks you are blowing smoke out your arse.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
RobG
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Geezus H. Christ, that isn't the area that burned. Yeah, we all understand lawsuits happen and prevent logging; the question is whether or not avoiding the lawsuits will help forest fires. Rice Ridge seems to be a prime case where they've logged the piss out of the area and it still burned out of control. Show me how lawsuits prevented management in the Rice Ridge area that burned.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
When the Forest Service puts in that kind of effort and money to put together a collaborative project near by Rice Ridge, only to have AWR put a fork in it, do you think they are going to propose to treat Rice Ridge? They would have got the same results.
Now with some new strategies and some needed legislation the USFS will be better able to do their job. Are you in favor of this Rob?
RobG
Well-known member
Gee Ram, neglecting the absurdity of your argument, all the recent understory clearing work I saw when I drove through there on Wednesday indicates you are wrong with the "same results" claim. I do know timber sales make it through and I know the effect of lawsuits has been greatly exaggerated by none other than Tester (who had to take his erroneous comments back), so I can't blame a "hack" like yourself for using the scapegoat
. I don't like the lawsuits, but they are just a hurdle the FS has to take on. Why Rice Ridge area burned out of control when lawsuits didn't hinder management is a curiosity to me... I hope someone will do an objective analysis on it, and also how beetle kill trees affected the flammability of the forests.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Gee Ram, neglecting the absurdity of your argument, all the recent understory clearing work I saw when I drove through there on Wednesday indicates you are wrong with the "same results" claim. I do know timber sales make it through and I know the effect of lawsuits has been greatly exaggerated by none other than Tester (who had to take his erroneous comments back), so I can't blame a "hack" like yourself for using the scapegoat
Why Rice Ridge area burned out of control when lawsuits didn't hinder management is a curiosity to me... I hope someone will do an objective analysis on it, and also how beetle kill trees affected the flammability of the forests.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Next time you are driving down 89 admiring the fuel reduction work that has been done along the roadway, take a few extra minutes to drive a couple miles in to the woods. This litigation is supported by the Cottonwood decision..........
"For lynx, which are dependent on snowshoe hare as prey, the lawsuit notes logging and burning of several hundred acres of hare habitat. That would normally violate lynx standards, but the Forest Service relies on exemptions allowing for logging in the wildland urban interface as needed fire protection, according to the lawsuit.
But the lawsuit alleges that the exemptions have been misapplied, by relying on a wildland urban interface map from local firefighters that extends 4 miles from communities, rather than the Forest Service’s standard of 1 mile."
How about we allow the USFS to do their job, Rob.
Dan O
Well-known member
Interesting discussion. I live in Seeley and attended the fire meetings held by the fire teams. One thing of note was they managed the fire and did not attack it. They did say on Rice Ridge the fire would burn up to the tree plantations "their words" aka clear cuts with new growth but not burn it. When the wind switched and the town was in real danger they attacked the fire and stopped it. In the other areas they would try to direct it to fire lines that were built far ahead of the fire. They used burnouts to help this process along on occasion they get out of control. When the fire headed toward the Swan ridge they did not try to stop it and let it run into the Bob.
In the beginning of the fire the start was near Florence Lake. This is where the young fire fighter was killed by a falling tree while reportedly attending a safety meeting. There was a old logging road leading to the area that was over grown and needed to be cleared allowing equipment in to fight the fire. A reliable source told me that someone in charge at the USFS told the crew they close roads they don't open them. The road remained impassable and the fire blew up to 160,000 acres and nearly 50 million dollars up in smoke. Plus the folks in the valley had to endure extremely hazardous air quality levels for weeks on end. Many residents have a cough that still affects them since the fire, I'm one of them. The Rice Ridge fire will have many long term effects on the area and the folks that live here. The health effects have many extremely worried and time will tell if it is a valid concern.
So it's safe to say I'm not a fan of the USFS at this point and their management practices. The forests need to have proper management and it does include logging and fuel mitigation. But that's just my opinion and it's mine only and many will disagree and that's their right but that's doesn't make them right
Dan
In the beginning of the fire the start was near Florence Lake. This is where the young fire fighter was killed by a falling tree while reportedly attending a safety meeting. There was a old logging road leading to the area that was over grown and needed to be cleared allowing equipment in to fight the fire. A reliable source told me that someone in charge at the USFS told the crew they close roads they don't open them. The road remained impassable and the fire blew up to 160,000 acres and nearly 50 million dollars up in smoke. Plus the folks in the valley had to endure extremely hazardous air quality levels for weeks on end. Many residents have a cough that still affects them since the fire, I'm one of them. The Rice Ridge fire will have many long term effects on the area and the folks that live here. The health effects have many extremely worried and time will tell if it is a valid concern.
So it's safe to say I'm not a fan of the USFS at this point and their management practices. The forests need to have proper management and it does include logging and fuel mitigation. But that's just my opinion and it's mine only and many will disagree and that's their right but that's doesn't make them right
Dan
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Thanks for the frontline comments Dan. Similar concerns coming from the Lolo Peak fire. You do have to understand that groups like AWR have severely hampered USFS's ability to manage OUR forests, particularly in areas with grizzlies and lynx like Seeley Lake.
Don't sweat it, Dan. Your opinion is shared by most Montanans. Folks like RobG are a loud but small minority when it comes to opinions about forest management on Montana's public lands.
Don't sweat it, Dan. Your opinion is shared by most Montanans. Folks like RobG are a loud but small minority when it comes to opinions about forest management on Montana's public lands.
RobG
Well-known member
BHR - If you are going to say that kind of crap about me you can go ahead and just f**k off. I'm looking for information on why management "failed" in this area and you just give me the same crap I can get from a Daines newsletter. I know there are lawsuits, I don't like them, however there doesn't seem to have been any in the area that burned so it is impossible to blame them. Yet you continue. Now it is about Cottonwood. For f**k's sake, that was, what, two years ago? And that is why this area was prevented from being managed? Give me a break.
I grew up in the stickville town of Ferndale and when I graduated most of my friends were in the logging business one way or another. They were great jobs if you weren't a candy ass. I don't oppose logging, but I do oppose the smoke you and Daines and others are blowing up my skirt. Jobs notwithstanding, it wasn't too long before the logged out areas were a greater fire hazard than had they simply left them alone.
I'm guessing there is good information out there on why this fire burned so long and wasn't controlled, but you clearly can't address the topic directly so perhaps it's time for you STFU on the topic.
Don, thanks for your information. If they were just letting it burn that would explain a lot, and if you heard that at the meetings there's probably some truth to it, but it seems strange policy during the drought. I'm always leery of "reliable sources." My cousin in Salmon, ID has first hand knowledge the crews were using barrels of diesel fuel a couple years ago to start fires ahead of the main blaze down there so the fire crews could make money
. The list of crazy first hand anti-government stuff I've heard is pretty long, especially in the Swan. However, I find your info plausible. I'd really like to know why this burned so long and eventually out of control and your POV helps.I drove through Seeley several times this summer and the smoke was horrible. I even had friends in Bigfork that had to leave their homes because of breathing smoke. It was a terrible thing, but fires seem unavoidable. Logging provides great jobs, but I'm not sure it can be helpful, acceptable to the public, and profitable at the same time. That is a recent conclusion after seeing what burns and I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing any strong info to the contrary, just the same old recycled BS.
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Dan O
Well-known member
RobG
First off the name is Dan not Don. I think you need to chill out a bit your getting a bit wound up. Don't worry I won't be blowing anything up your skirt. After 28 years in Law Enforcement I consider the source before I consider them reliable and judge them from there. This source Is Reliable! There were a number of locals that were told by various fire fighters that they wish they "USFS" would let them do there job and put the fire out. The handling of the fire is a sore subject to those who had to live with it for most of the summer. Also a friend of mine is a retired USFS employee. He pointed out the fact that 30 year old clear cuts "plantations" did not burn but in fact acted as barriers. That's something to think about.
Well I'm done with this thread it pisses me off to much.
Dan
First off the name is Dan not Don. I think you need to chill out a bit your getting a bit wound up. Don't worry I won't be blowing anything up your skirt. After 28 years in Law Enforcement I consider the source before I consider them reliable and judge them from there. This source Is Reliable! There were a number of locals that were told by various fire fighters that they wish they "USFS" would let them do there job and put the fire out. The handling of the fire is a sore subject to those who had to live with it for most of the summer. Also a friend of mine is a retired USFS employee. He pointed out the fact that 30 year old clear cuts "plantations" did not burn but in fact acted as barriers. That's something to think about.
Well I'm done with this thread it pisses me off to much.
Dan
RobG
Well-known member
Dan - sorry - none of that was aimed at you, it just accidentally carried over. I mentioned I find your story plausible and that I appreciated it. Sorry for the confusion. Please accept my apologies.
Dan O
Well-known member
Accepted
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Rob,
Washington Democrat Senators are working with GOP Idaho Senators as well both Daines and Tester to come up with solutions to the obvious problems that our western forests are now facing. That's the topic of this thread. You are marginalizing yourself with your behaviour here.
Washington Democrat Senators are working with GOP Idaho Senators as well both Daines and Tester to come up with solutions to the obvious problems that our western forests are now facing. That's the topic of this thread. You are marginalizing yourself with your behaviour here.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
That is factual and is a worthy topic of this thread. I think the discussion has turned somewhat contentiously convoluted in that there is a difference in perspective regarding the "problems that our western forests are now facing". BHR, it would be helpful to be more clear on your perspectives, rather than merely providing a link to a news article which may or may not be current or even pertain to the question or issue at hand. Most folks are somewhat frustrated at the seemingly stifling litigation, thus see a need for legislative solutions. Most folks agree that more forest management practices such as logging and thinning are needed to reduce fire risk and potential damages in urban wildland interface areas and to allow the timber industry increased opportunity. However, the evidence analyzed during the many large wildfires during the past couple of decades refutes the assertion that logging and thinning serves to prevent the drought related extensive wildfires. Your opinion regarding the use of thinning to mitigate wildfire risks in microcosmic specific areas is respected and even agreed with. but the logic cannot be reasonably extended to the tracts of millions of acres of forest across the northwest.
With regard to the Rice Ridge fire, Rob has asked some specific questions, which you have either misunderstood or simply don't wish to answer because the response may not support your assertions. 'Don't know which, but it is clear there is a difference in what is asked versus the response. Again, apples vs pumpkins. It is unfortunate since both Rob and BHR are clearly frustrated with one another and the communication process has evolved to a point of disrespect.
RobG
Well-known member
Thanks SA.. yup, specific questions... This one is a mystery to me. I'll try to fly over it this summer to see what burned. Maybe the areas that were managed had more mature trees survive. If anyone has some real info on the area feel free to PM me. Except for Dan, not much of value been said here.
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