Article on Cougar Predation

[Foxtrot1]

Interesting research on cougar predation.

Mountain Lion Study

https://www.nontypical.org/news/2018/1/15/the-deadly-truth-most-dont-know-about-mountain-lions UNIVERSITY OF ALBERTA STUDY FINDS MOUNTAIN LIONS MAY BE EATING MORE THAN PREVIOUSLY BELIEVED Mountain lions, the largest members of the cat family in North America, may be heartier eaters than some...

www.africahunting.com

 

[Sampson67]

It not only amazes me on the number of kills but also the (home) range of the critters. I assume they are just following the best food. 50 deer per year per lion, how is it even possible for a herd to sustain at those levels, with wolves and bears adding onto the prey list.

 

[BuzzH]

Doesn't surprise me at all. If a person spends any amount of time, paying attention while they hunt big-game in Western Montana, they wouldn't find anything shocking in that survey.

Ever since Montana bent to the will of the houndsmen and made the entire NW part of the state one big lion sanctuary via "trophy lion" and permit only designations, its not by chance the whitetail, mule deer, and elk populations have declined.

Do the simple math on the number of lions in regions 1 and 2 multiplied by on average, an ungulate a week...the numbers get real big, real fast.

Another thing to consider, is how many ungulates it takes to get a trophy lion....say 8 years old would be a trophy tom.

The trade-off to get a trophy lion is 400 plus ungulates...and that's what needs to be measured when considering how we choose to manage lions. Some may think its worth 400 dead deer and elk, some may not...things to consider when the topic of lion management is up for review by the FWP and other Game and Fish agencies across the West.

 

[Bowhunter65]

I want to play the devils advocate here, I am a life long bowhunter and one of those life long "houndsmen" here in region 1 of Montana. We had high numbers of deer, moose & elk when we had the highest population of lions from late 80's to mid 90's, more lions than we have now in Region 1. Then comes along the wolves, that changed everything, especially the lions hunting habits, eat and run, the wolves follow the lions around. The 1500 lions was mathematical equation, "sub-adults - adults - kittens". the real number would be around 600-700. Please don't get me wrong, this my opinion and I eat meat, deer & elk, what bothers me is the real reason for me seeing the ungulates population in trouble is the wolf, period, especially the moose population.

Thanks; Terry

 

[BuzzH]

700x52...advanced math...36,400 ungulates biting the dust.

The trade off?

Up to 100 lions harvested in region 1 and a total of 163 lion hunters being able to hunt via the special permits.

364 deer, elk, moose being sacrificed for up to 1 lion harvested in region 1.

High cost to giving 163 lion hunters trophy opportunity in my opinion.

Blame it on wolves all you want, but the numbers suggest otherwise. Just like the predation study in the 'root...lions have a huge impact on elk, deer, etc. The science and numbers are what they are.

 

[beginnerhunter]

There's such a thing as a trophy lion unit?? Crazy.

I'd read recently that wolves will actually displace mountain lions. Funny, I looked it up because I wondered who would win in a fight between a mountain lion and wolf, lol. Turns out a lone wolf will lose to a mountain lion but a pack of wolves (normal circumstances) will displace or kill mountain lions. At least that's what I read.

Side note: some CWD experts think more mountain lions and wolves will help control CWD because they will target sick animals much more efficiently than hunters.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

700x52...advanced math...36,400 ungulates biting the dust.

The trade off?

Up to 100 lions harvested in region 1 and a total of 163 lion hunters being able to hunt via the special permits.

364 deer, elk, moose being sacrificed for up to 1 lion harvested in region 1.

High cost to giving 163 lion hunters trophy opportunity in my opinion.

Blame it on wolves all you want, but the numbers suggest otherwise. Just like the predation study in the 'root...lions have a huge impact on elk, deer, etc. The science and numbers are what they are.

Having recently been lucky to draw one of those coveted tags, and having some friends up in region one, my observation has been that it is quite a cocktail up there that is driving the ungulates down, particularly the bull:cow ratio. I will say it is awful tough country to try and kill a wolf in.

 

[Bowhunter65]

Blame it the wolves, you bet I do, I live here seen the damage the wolves have done here in region 1, changed the lions habits. Now as far as the lions there is a reason we went to the limited entry draw in region 1 & 2. There was a race region 1 & 2 during lion season back then, it was over in a week, quotes filled that fast and over harvest was a problem with the quota system. It did not favor us keeping the lion hunt with over harvests. So we went with a limited entry draw. We did not have near the wolf problems back then either. The FWP came up only 350 wolves here in Region 1, personally in my opinion that number could be doubled, region 1 is not a wolf hunters paradise, trapping is working.

Thanks; Terry

 

[BuzzH]

Blame it the wolves, you bet I do, I live here seen the damage the wolves have done here in region 1, changed the lions habits. Now as far as the lions there is a reason we went to the limited entry draw in region 1 & 2. There was a race region 1 & 2 during lion season back then, it was over in a week, quotes filled that fast and over harvest was a problem with the quota system. It did not favor us keeping the lion hunt with over harvests. So we went with a limited entry draw. We did not have near the wolf problems back then either. The FWP came up only 350 wolves here in Region 1, personally in my opinion that number could be doubled, region 1 is not a wolf hunters paradise, trapping is working.

Thanks; Terry

Think you might want to pull up your bias...you're sort of showing the whole world your tail.

Its funny you believe the FWP is over estimating the lion population on the one hand, but then under estimating wolf populations on the other. I'll grant you that the numbers provided by FWP on anything are always suspect. But come on, essentially doubling the population on one hand, and cutting the other in half, gives the impression of some selective ax-grinding.

I also lived in Montana for a long time, in the periods you mentioned and still hunt there every year. To say lions were being over-harvested in the 80's is pure crap. Go look at the long-term data on harvest statistics. Most of the major drainages were experiencing pretty consistent lion harvest all through the 80's-90's.

I also cant tell you how many FWP meetings I attended in that time frame that where dominated by the houndsmen association...Huska, Davidson, Martin...all the usual suspects crying about how fast the quotas were closing. Crying about how many new houndsmen there were that "weren't dedicated" and the need to be able to select the best lions. High pitched whining about people just running lions to kill them.

Not once did I hear anything about over-harvest, only the quotas being met to too fast.

Plus, as a guy that trapped a lot of the country that is now under trophy lion management, I had nothing but a pain in the ass dealing with lions messing with bobcat and coyote sets. It was ridiculous and I bet I could have trapped a dozen lions a year with ease.

I can also tell you that having kept hunting/fishing/trapping journals with lots of details regarding track sightings of furbearers while I hunted elk and deer...finding lion tracks in the early 80's wasn't uncommon, but certainly worth noting. Starting about 1998ish-current, I don't even bother making note of them anymore because you see tracks every single day. I was also part of a voluntary study being done for a FWP predator/furbearer track survey to note what I was finding track wise.

The lion population was not being overhunted in the 80's...the data clearly shows that. If over hunting was a problem, then why did harvest numbers remain so constant? That doesn't reconcile with what you're claiming, that lion populations were low. Also, if there were no lions around, then why did the quotas fill so fast (that every houndsmen, over and over and over bitched about for hours at every open house meeting)? Again, your suggestion doesn't reconcile with reality. If lions were being pounded and populations so low, then I doubt quotas would fill in a week.

I get it, you like hunting lions, but also I think you need to be honest...they are having a larger impact than wolves in most of regions 1 and 2 on deer in particular...but also killing their share of elk too.

That's not to say that I believe wolves eat salad and they don't also impact deer, elk, and moose...they do, no debate. I also wont deny that the problem with elk, deer, and moose in regions 1 and 2 is gross mismanagement on FWP's part and an accumulative effect of lions, wolves, bears, and human hunting. They all impact the resource and not in a positive way.

Where I differ, is I don't select just one from the subset of problems just because I like to trap wolves, or hunt lions, or hunt deer, or hunt elk...reality is what matters.

Carry on...