Are we still a Christian nation ?

[Europe]

Our Treasury says we are. " In God We Trust"

Our Judicial says we are "So help me God"

Our President and Congress members say we are when they take their oath " So help me God"

Some educational institutions still recite the pledge of allegiance " One Nation under God"

Our Declaration of Independence makes 4 references to God

The Liberty Bell ----etc.

Many non church attendee's and even some non believers will say " Oh God, please" ( inset the problem or emergency ) when something unexpected or frightening happens to them or a loved one

I am currently around people who are old and/or sick and find them speaking of God and I ask them if they have always "asked" God for help and many have honestly said only now that I am old and ill or if an emergency occurred when I was younger.

I am the wrong one to ask as my grandmother and mother took me to church every sunday, we always said grace before eating, etc. And I carried my beliefs forward to my children and grandchildren.

But I see fewer and fewer in church and see many asking for the word "God" or "references to him" to be removed from some my aforementioned references.

So I am curious as to your honest opinions. Are we still a Christian nation ? Do you believe God should be removed form some of the aforementioned references ? What is your thoughts on why Church attendance is down in America ?

Thank you Ladies and Gentlemen for all the kind pm's of concern last week, it was appreciated and today was the first day I was able to type---thank you !

 

[CiK]

As for me and my house, we serve the Lord.

 

[Mudder]

I think anti-religion is a fad, like so many the left dreams up, here today gone tomorrow. If not gone at least only advocated by a few fanatics.

Some sort of diety has been around nearly as long as mankind has been around. I read they found artifacts of some sort of diety or worship when mankind was three feet tall and covered in fur.

I'd say it is a part of what makes us, us. And without it we would likely be something different, some say better, some say pretty much the same, some say worse. I say worse, few things living do well without roots. I honestly think abandoning out traditions is bound to have unintended consequences and I'm very doubtful it will be for the better in the long term. The easiest lessons learned are by watching or reading about somebody else's malfunctions and not doing that. More wisdom than you'd think in the Bible, the Torah or the Halakhah (the only three I'm familiar with). In my opinion, people interpret them way too narrowly. When you ask the right questions who, what, where when and why, the writings make a lot more sense.

Something has saved my bacon on numerous occasions, you can call it anything you want, I call it the Holy Spirit. And I can't explain it either.

 

[gouch]

Glad your feeling better
The concept of "God" is not something that only Christians believe in. It is pretty much universal in one form or another. Nothing I love more than a good religious discussion, debate or ultimately argument but I fear Big Fin wouldn't let it go too long.

 

[Fullquiver]

No.. We haven't been a "Christian" nation for some time..

 

[rwc101]

There is no requirement for a president or congressperson to swear to god. In God We Trust was adopted in the 1950s. We are a nation founded by people who were escaping oppression from national religions. We have been a nation of mostly Christians for a long time, but never a Christian nation. Having a strong feeling of where this thread is going to go, I'm going to peace out.

 

[pre6422hornet]

I haven't purposefully attended a Sunday service ( Methodist) in probably close to 25 years. 25 years ago my younger brother passed away at the age of 18 after two bouts with cancer beginning when he was ten years old. Upon the second diagnosis he elected to not have treatment and within two months the cancer had eaten him down to nothing. I was home from college and I literally carried him up the stairs to bed and down every night.

It made no sense to me why an all loving spirit would do this to a child, while myself was a pillar of 21 year old strength. It wasn't fair. No one will ever be able to convince me that it was.

Now fast forward and my wife and I were married in a Methodist church, have 4 young daughters ( who have all been baptized), and we say a prayer of thanks every meal we eat together. We thank God for everything we have been provided, but we also thank Mother Nature and The Great Spirit for the world we live in and the Nature we all enjoy so much.

I truly feel that there isn't just one God ( hence why we pray to the other spirits as well). Every time I see a sunrise or sunset, a whitetail deer walk by oblivious to my presence, a bald eagle soar on the thermals, a blue Heron behind the house hunting for a bluegill in the shallows... I see God, Mother Nature, and the Great Spirit. I feel something.

I don't need to attend a service to be closer to them. I see people who attend services and they are in my eyes so far removed from anything spiritual. They go and attend, give their Tithes, shake hands with the people next to them. But are they truly happy spiritually? I can't say yes or no for sure but I bet there are those who are there just because it is what is deemed in society as the norm or right thing to do. Go to church.

I go to church. Probably a thousand times a week. This mornings service was amazing. Sat on the back deck at sunrise sipping a steaming hot cup of coffee and watched the sun come up over the eastern trees. IT was glorious.

 

[glass eye]

A relationship with GOD is personal and not national.
God only has children, no grandkids.

 

[Arctic_Snow_Seeker]

90% of the people I hunt with are atheists myself included, the other 10% seem to be of some form of Christian faith.

 

[Mudder]

In my opinion, you can believe anything you want, the problems start when you try to *force* your beliefs or nonbeliefs on someone else. IMO expunging religion from society is going to leave a void and you have to ask yourself what is going to fill that void? How about supreme leader Hillary.

 

[MThuntr]

I was forced to participate in religion as a kid by my grandparents...once I finished Catholic confirmation I quit. Personally there is a reason on why we live in America and have Separation of Church and State. I find organized religion to be the root of a lot hate in the world and has blinded many people from being good people because of their indoctrination.

 

[Europe]

I haven't purposefully attended a Sunday service ( Methodist) in probably close to 25 years. 25 years ago my younger brother passed away at the age of 18 after two bouts with cancer beginning when he was ten years old. Upon the second diagnosis he elected to not have treatment and within two months the cancer had eaten him down to nothing. I was home from college and I literally carried him up the stairs to bed and down every night.

It made no sense to me why an all loving spirit would do this to a child, while myself was a pillar of 21 year old strength. It wasn't fair. No one will ever be able to convince me that it was.

Now fast forward and my wife and I were married in a Methodist church, have 4 young daughters ( who have all been baptized), and we say a prayer of thanks every meal we eat together. We thank God for everything we have been provided, but we also thank Mother Nature and The Great Spirit for the world we live in and the Nature we all enjoy so much.

I truly feel that there isn't just one God ( hence why we pray to the other spirits as well). Every time I see a sunrise or sunset, a whitetail deer walk by oblivious to my presence, a bald eagle soar on the thermals, a blue Heron behind the house hunting for a bluegill in the shallows... I see God, Mother Nature, and the Great Spirit. I feel something.

I don't need to attend a service to be closer to them. I see people who attend services and they are in my eyes so far removed from anything spiritual. They go and attend, give their Tithes, shake hands with the people next to them. But are they truly happy spiritually? I can't say yes or no for sure but I bet there are those who are there just because it is what is deemed in society as the norm or right thing to do. Go to church.

I go to church. Probably a thousand times a week. This mornings service was amazing. Sat on the back deck at sunrise sipping a steaming hot cup of coffee and watched the sun come up over the eastern trees. IT was glorious.

Beautiful post , thank you Pat.

Your post was one of the themes we discussed yesterday and in one way or another, your words were repeated over and over again. I lost loved ones throughout my life, as far back as WW 2, and like you, some young people passed, which made no sense to me, and of course my husband. But on certain days after he passed and when the sun was setting somewhere, especially when I was sailing or camping in the mountain somewhere, I didn't feel alone.

We discussed this topic for almost four hours yesterday with no ill will or arguments, but if that is not possible here, by all means Big Fin should delete the thread, with my apologizes to the forum. And I just sent him a pm saying that if he felt the thread should not have been started, by all means delete it with my blessings ( no pun intended ) as the 'forum" is more important than an individual thread or member.

 

[Mudder]

I was forced to participate in religion as a kid by my grandparents...once I finished Catholic confirmation I quit. Personally there is a reason on why we live in America and have Separation of Church and State. I find organized religion to be the root of a lot hate in the world and has blinded many people from being good people because of their indoctrination.

I think it is in our nature to search for a higher power, it almost has to be in some way in our genes by now. And like most tendencies, it is stronger in some people than others.

It is also in some people's nature to consolidate power, either church or state. Without religion what is left, anarchy or state? IMO when diety and state become one, the State becomes predominant or there is no higher leadership, bad things happen. Keeping the State and Religion separate is a good idea, expunging one or the other, or when one or the other becomes too prominent bad things happen.

 

[RobG]

Were we meant to be a Christian Nation? In the the 50s "In God we Trust" replaced "E. pluribis unum" (Out of Many, One). The Constitution bans religious tests for officeholders, not to mention the very first "make no law" in the first amendment was banning the establishment of religion.

 

[Panda Bear]

April,

I am not surprised at all with this topic being on your mind after last week. I for one am just glad to see you make a post.

However your question about the birth of your country and the references to and use of the word God in the birth of your country and whether or not these words are still relevant today, is possibly to some, like saying your 2nd Amendment is not relevant today.

I think you and Pat could be Inuits as we do believe the good Lord is in the animals, streams, mountains, and we dont need to be in a building or even with other people to appreciate our surroundings and to give thanks

I found during my college years on the east coast more people were anti religion and even made fun of us who did believe. I find here at home there is more who do believe, but even those who dont, respect each others right to or not to believe.

 

[Addicting]

I was forced to participate in religion as a kid by my grandparents...once I finished Catholic confirmation I quit. Personally there is a reason on why we live in America and have Separation of Church and State. I find organized religion to be the root of a lot hate in the world and has blinded many people from being good people because of their indoctrination.

I’ve felt that way for a while. After the tower of Babel when languages changed so did the meaning of words. There are so many religions that are very similar but we are told that they are wrong and our way is the only right way. It causes division and if forced upon children, rebellion. Neither of which is good for “One Nation Under God”.

Unfortunately, now days it takes a catastrophic National event for folks to show “One Nation under God”.

 

[R.K.]

If religion makes you a better person, great. If it doesn't, then why are you going? I see a lot of hatred coming from churches and certain religious groups in the modern age, and it's far too common to say they're the exception.

I grew up Catholic. The community that it built led to an incredible social support system where everyone would get help if they needed it, even though they would never ask. The big social events hosted a couple times a year we're also a lot of fun, and great for the community as a whole.

But as time wore on, I'm not sure if it was the patrons that changed, or just my awareness of them, but I found very few people that were avid churchgoers that I would call decent human beings. And so I left. I'm 30, and there are countless people my age with the same experience- people going to church not to better themselves, but to try leveraging that image in order to further their own agendas (mostly money or social status related).

Rwc101 Hit the nail on the head- we are not, and never were, a Christian nation. Most language related to God and religion was added after the Second world war in order to distinguish this nation from fascists and communists. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that is the truth of the matter. And this country cannot make any law relating to religion, has no state religion, and historically welcomes all (from a legal point of view, historically).

But, like rwc 101, I think I'm out.

 

[JLS]

Personally there is a reason on why we live in America and have Separation of Church and State. I find organized religion to be the root of a lot hate in the world and has blinded many people from being good people because of their indoctrination.

These are a couple of very true and salient points.

To the first, I absolutely agree in separation of church and state. We go to church, my wife is a pastor, and we live our lives as followers of Jesus Christ. All that said, I would be entirely opposed to any form of mandated prayer schools, the workplace, etc. I have freedom to take a moment of silence and say a prayer at any point during my day. I do not need nor want it to be mandated. Someone else is entirely free to practice the religion of their choice, and I have no desire to infringe up on that, just as I have no desire for them to infringe upon my choice.

Your second point on organized religion is very interesting and something I have spent a lot of time pondering. I won't speak to any other religion, because I would likely be parroting ignorance and mistruth. I can unequivocally say there is a segment of Christianity that fits your statement. The unfortunate irony there, is Christianity is not meant to be about following rules and procedures and ceremonies. It's simply about loving God and loving those around us. If you do this, it's pretty tough to live a life of hate and judgment. In the converse, it's pretty hard to live a life of hate and judgement while loving God and those around us. Ergo, a Christian not necessarily the same as a follower of Christ.

 

[406dn]

In my opinion, you can believe anything you want, the problems start when you try to *force* your beliefs or nonbeliefs on someone else. IMO expunging religion from society is going to leave a void and you have to ask yourself what is going to fill that void? How about supreme leader Hillary.

At least you didn't offer the orange clown.

As to my beliefs, I'm agnostic. I won't say there is no God, but neither am I at all convinced there is one. Given every culture thru out history has had a belief in a supreme being,, there must be a void it fills for many.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Good question and one that requires a shared understanding of a lot of different definitions that many people feel passionate about.

Historically, I don’t think America is or has ever been a Christian nation. Many of the founders were men of strong faith who viewed life and reality through the framework of a Judeo-Christian worldview. They affirmed their dependency on God and the how God honors a nation that honors Him.

They also had first hand experience with the persecution that accompanied a forced and official religious affiliation by the government and explicitly sought to avoid it in America.

Their wise and appropriate recognition for the necessity of allowing everyone to worship God (or not) according to the dictates of their conscience was actually in complete harmony with an appropriate understanding of the teachings of Christ.

The Apostle Paul wrote in the letter of Hebrews that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6)

A “ faith” that is coerced cannot be of free choice and I believe the founding fathers recognized this from either practical experience or their understanding of Scripture. As such their idea of separation of church and state was an intentional approach to how to address the need for appropriate oversight of the actions of American citizens without violating their human dignity in regards to religious expression.

I think all Americans of whatever spiritual belief or religious affiliation can be grateful for the wisdom these men displayed in drafting these protections into our Constitution. We will all be wise to preserve this liberty for those who believe differently than us, so that our liberty is preserved as well.

There is definitely a time and a place for debate and teaching about what constitutes appropriate faith, belief, and behavior towards God, or whether He exists or not, or whatever questions or debate arise. That arena is supposed to be free of government coercion or official endorsement.

Personally, I unashamedly identify as a follower of Christ and believe that the parameters of behavior endorsed as good in the Bible or condemned as sin are standards every person would be wise to accept and live within.

I think that Christians within our government who act wisely are a great blessing to our nation. I also think persons of other religious affiliation or no affiliation at all who act wisely are also a great blessing.

I think the question of whether our nation should be or is Christian or not is problematic. I believe everyone should follow Christ out of personal faith and conviction.

I also realize when any religious affiliation or doctrine is given the power of the state to coerce adherence to or punish those who won’t accept it, great abuses occur.

If our nation and government are officially “Christian “ whoever is in control will determine the definition of “Christian”. Many terrible abuses have been perpetrated in the name of Christ, in complete violation of the teachings of Christ.

Those who are Christian in their own conviction and faith attempt to live their lives in harmony with what Jesus describes as the two greatest commandments. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and your neighbor as yourself.”

I would like to consider myself as one of those types of Christians. I don’t want a “Christian” nation. I want a nation that grants us the liberty to worship as we choose and the ability to have discourse about matters of faith, religion, and personal belief without rewarding certain people or persecuting other people based on their belief.