Applications Costa for busing points

[DrakeKillerSX3]

I believe I saw a graphic a few years ago that showed what the cost was to buy a point in all the Western States but with a few changes recently to a few States has anyone seen an updated graphic for the upcoming seasons?

Thanks on advance

 

[DrakeKillerSX3]

Sorry for typos was trying to type quick on my phone ��*

 

[ImBillT]

More than I can afford.

 

[Trial153]

There is a Gohunt article with a graph that showed out of pocket costs as well non refundable costs for an across the board application in each state.
I think that was 2016 or 2017.
Since that article we have seen numerous increases. Just off the top of my head, Co, WY and NM have gone up, and I know I am missing a few. WY was the most significant with cost increases for moose and sheep, plus big increases in tag prices and now an additional 2.5 percent on top as well. Co points for sheep and moose went up substantially as well. NM added a nonresident license to the mix this year also.
I suspect the graphs are well...useless, ok inaccurate at this point.

 

[ImBillT]

Ouch! Non-refundable licenses is painful and truly bull crap. Make me buy a license even if I don’t get to hunt? That was one of the better things about NM. While I prefer states that don’t use a point system, at least your non-refundable license went toward something. Now it’s just throwing money in the fire.

 

[DrakeKillerSX3]

Ya it gets tough with limited budget i have been able to start building points in CO and WY the last couple years while still enjoying some OTC elk hunting but was looking to add a few more states to the mix so i can get on a Limited Draw rotation. From what i see Arizona and Montana are not to bad other then paying for Tag up front then getting refunded.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Ouch! Non-refundable licenses is painful and truly bull crap. Make me buy a license even if I don’t get to hunt? That was one of the better things about NM. While I prefer states that don’t use a point system, at least your non-refundable license went toward something. Now it’s just throwing money in the fire.

While I can understand people don't want to be forced to buy a hunting licence to buy a bonus point I can also understand why game agencies wouldn't want to let people just buy points without adding anything to the coffers.

 

[Bullshot]

While I can understand people don't want to be forced to buy a hunting licence to buy a bonus point I can also understand why game agencies wouldn't want to let people just buy points without adding anything to the coffers.

But doesn't buying the point add something to the coffers?

 

[Gr8bawana]

But doesn't buying the point add something to the coffers?

Why would they do that when they can get the price of countless of NR licence fees? When I apply as a NR I know I have to play by their rules, or I could just choose not to apply in that state.

 

[Bullshot]

Why would they do that when they can get the price of countless of NR licence fees? When I apply as a NR I know I have to play by their rules, or I could just choose not to apply in that state.

Every single time this comes up. It seems to be a race to see who is the first person to say "don't like it, don't apply". Are we expected to be so passive and meek in our opinions or else risk someone pulling the trump card... "don't like it, don't apply!" Of course we have to play by the rules. But we have to love every one of them? That is really going to cut down on the forum traffic, as pretty much all that goes on is the sharing of opinions.

I am not trying to be aggressive. I am tired from a long day and you were not attacking me I am sure. But all I am saying is the lengths that the agencies are going to justify these fees on top of fees is stupid. There, I said it. Raise the fees if need be. Make ppl buy a licence if need be. But explain - accurately - why it is necessary and to a departments' advantage to collect hunting licence fees on top of point fees. I'd prefer we could all agree that there is no need to collect 3, 4, 5 different fees for a single application. It's hard to keep track. I know, I have an Excel sheet I need to use just for that purpose (5-10 states, multiple species per state, app fee, licence fee, tag fee, credit card fee, pref point fee, search and rescue fee, habitat stamp, what's refundable -vs- what's not, etc). I wish they could just price it appropriately...and simply. Or if there is a real administrative need or requirement to break it down, then explain that. But saying that applicants (specifically point-only applicants) are not contributing anything, or putting skin in the game while purchasing points is patently false . Points are after all, a made-up construct, with no underlying monetary value, non-transferable, and often go "unspent" by a good percentage of the holders of them. But they do cost real, honest to God money. And those costs have risen (why? one might ask, how does a thing with no intrinsic value rise with inflation - weren't these just supposed to be a record of failed draw attempts or reward for longevity in the game, not an aspirational purchase unto themselves). So they (points) dang sure represent a measurable financial contribution over time. If this wasn't true, I wouldn't be adding up to over a grand in fees and points and superfluous licences each year, before even drawing and buying a tag. I am galled and offended that this is among the new ways it seems for hunters to kick other hunters down. I have been in the game about 21 years. And I have certainly added some money to the conservation coffers in numerous states over that time and I will CHOOSE to continue to do so for as long as I want - or not - fully aware of the tradeoffs and fully in possession of my opinion of them.

 

[Bullshot]

Why would they do that when they can get the price of countless of NR licence fees? When I apply as a NR I know I have to play by their rules, or I could just choose not to apply in that state.

Every single time this comes up. It seems to be a race to see who is the first person to say "don't like it, don't apply". Are we expected to be so passive and meek in our opinions or else risk someone pulling the trump card... "don't like it, don't apply!" Of course we have to play by the rules. But we have to love every one of them? That is really going to cut down on the forum traffic, as pretty much all that goes on is the sharing of opinions.

I am not trying to be aggressive. I am tired from a long day and you were not attacking me I am sure. But all I am saying is the lengths that the agencies are going to justify these fees on top of fees is stupid. There, I said it. Raise the fees if need be. Make ppl buy a licence if need be. But explain - accurately - why it is necessary and to a departments' advantage to collect hunting licence fees on top of point fees. I'd prefer we could all agree that there is no need to collect 3, 4, 5 different fees for a single application. It's hard to keep track. I know, I have an Excel sheet I need to use just for that purpose (5-10 states, multiple species per state, app fee, licence fee, tag fee, credit card fee, pref point fee, search and rescue fee, habitat stamp, what's refundable -vs- what's not, etc). I wish they could just price it appropriately...and simply. Or if there is a real administrative need or requirement to break it down, then explain that. But saying that applicants (specifically point-only applicants) are not contributing anything, or putting skin in the game while purchasing points is patently false . Points are after all, a made-up construct, with no underlying monetary value, non-transferable, and often go "unspent" by a good percentage of the holders of them. But they do cost real, honest to God money. And those costs have risen (why? one might ask, how does a thing with no intrinsic value rise with inflation - weren't these just supposed to be a record of failed draw attempts or reward for longevity in the game, not an aspirational purchase unto themselves). So they (points) dang sure represent a measurable financial contribution over time. If this wasn't true, I wouldn't be adding up to over a grand in fees and points and superfluous licences each year, before even drawing and buying a tag. I am galled and offended that this is among the new ways it seems for hunters to kick other hunters down. I have been in the game about 21 years. And I have certainly added some money to the conservation coffers in numerous states over that time and I will CHOOSE to continue to do so for as long as I want - or not - fully aware of the tradeoffs and fully in possession of my opinion of them.

 

[Trial153]

I think there is also another under current in this. Go to places like Bowsite and point / license increases arenot so subtlety hinted as good thing because of the potential to thin the herd by pricing some people out. Much is said in jest however it’s pretty transparent that its any but that. Some hunters honestly feel that if they can afford a bigger slice of the pie, pass the knife.

The truth of the matter is that the over monetization of hunting will be our down fall. It has already plagued the whitetail world to such an extent that acess in many places if it isn’t purchased it isn’t available.
Governors tags as political favors, LO tags, outfitter welfare, Auctions, Raffles, the cost of applications and points will all cumulatively hasten our demise.

 

[Bullshot]

I think there is also another under current in this. Go to places like Bowsite and point / license increases arenot so subtlety hinted as good thing because of the potential to thin the herd by pricing some people out. Much is said in jest however it’s pretty transparent that its any but that. Some hunters honestly feel that if they can afford a bigger slice of the pie, pass the knife.

The truth of the matter is that the over monetization of hunting will be our down fall. It has already plagued the whitetail world to such an extent that acess in many places if it isn’t purchased it isn’t available.
Governors tags as political favors, LO tags, outfitter welfare, Auctions, Raffles, the cost of applications and points will all cumulatively hasten our demise.

I agree with everything you just said. We all at times are clearly missing elements of the big picture. 15, 25 and certainly 50 years from now, when there are fewer and fewer interested/able hunters - particularly of lesser means, with fewer opportunities, less access, and more people actively opposed to all of us, I am willing to bet there will still be people on forums like this perpetuating the notion that all is well because each and every tag is sold. However, all is not well once we look past the tips of our own noses. Does hunting today feel like it did when you were a kid? A teenager? Even a young adult? It is expensive and competitive and commercialized like never before. Are your family and friends and neighbors and co-workers like-minded folks, or are those shared connections dwindling too? If not, consider yourself very very lucky. I have my grandpa's Woolrich hunting cap here on my shelf, his mounted buck (shot on Christmas Eve 1926!) on my garage wall and my late Dad's things scattered throughout my house. But my wife is not into it, none of her family ever was, nor my sister, nor brother, nor my two girls who are nature lovers but not inclined to this pursuit yet, nor my nephews or neighbor, or most of my colleagues. I may and likely will find myself as the very last hunter in my entire multi generational lineage of hunters and I am worried that I am also watching the sport I love change for the worse. For that reason, I probably react too emotionally at times to what seems minor encroachments on how I wish it still was. But some people don't react emotionally enough.

 

[LopeHunter]

But doesn't buying the point add something to the coffers?

$65 for a license drags along Federal funds via Pittman-Robertson fees on weapons and ammunition that then is divided to states relative to not how the tax was collected but relative to various license revenues. $65 in credit card fees or application fees is merely $65.

Per Wiki: The Pittman–Robertson Act took over a pre-existing 11% excise tax on firearms and ammunition. Instead of going into the U.S. Treasury as it had done in the past, the money is kept separate and is given to the Secretary of the Interior to distribute to the States.

 

[Bullshot]

They could accomplish the same thing by charging $1 for the licence that won't be used. And it's a zero sum game if all the states sell phantom licences that are not indicative of the actual number of hunters. Wyoming will be doing this next, they are late to the party and can't be blamed when it happens. But is that what it has come to? Padding hunter numbers by forcing licence sales to scratch additional P-R money away from your neighboring states? Again, if that makes the most sense, fine, but 1) as a community we should be mindful of cost control generally and 2) we should be careful of this slippery slope where we justify charging ever heftier fees for the mere attempt to obtain the privilege to hunt, which is even less palatable than charging more for the folks who actually draw licences (many of whom, myself included, are apt to say - I would have paid even more for the tag if I had to).

I think I'll retreat for a bit on this and similar threadsI don't have much more to add except doubled down and restated concerns. I am not an expert in game dept finance, just sharing one-man's opinion and more or less pis**ng in the wind as I am prone to doing. Need to get back to my more enjoyable pursuits of reading about elk and antelope tactics. Application season really gets the juices flowing though doesn't it!

 

[DrakeKillerSX3]

Found that Article i had seen it was from 2015 on Gohunt done by the Big Fin himself.

https://www.gohunt.com/read/skills/budget-101-how-to-hunt-elk-every-year#gs.W8IKSx0T

I know Prices has Changed from this with CO Coming down and more states offering the purchase point only option. From what I see Montana a Point costs $50, Colorado Point $13 and Wyoming Point $52.

Question i have now is what is the end cost to obtain a point in Arizona?

 

[Lost Arra]

$65 for a license drags along Federal funds via Pittman-Robertson fees on weapons and ammunition that then is divided to states relative to not how the tax was collected but relative to various license revenues. $65 in credit card fees or application fees is merely $65.

Per Wiki: The Pittman–Robertson Act took over a pre-existing 11% excise tax on firearms and ammunition. Instead of going into the U.S. Treasury as it had done in the past, the money is kept separate and is given to the Secretary of the Interior to distribute to the States.

Oklahoma took a different strategy. The state now issues to all tribal members over the age of 17 FREE combo hunting and fishing licenses with the same seasons and bag limits including deer and turkey. (actually the tribe pays the state $2 a piece). Only reason I can figure is to up the issued license totals for more Pittman Robertson funds. With a casino on every state highway I can't figure the license freebie was "need based".

 

[kylemcintyre67]

As a new hunter, getting ready to apply for tags this year, I can say that I have decided I have no interest in chasing points because of the expense. I was planning to apply for elk in Arizona as part of my strategy, but once I dug into the nuts and bolts of it, $160 non refundable for a license I won't use if i don't draw is just to steep especially on top of a $600 tag fee. I am just going to put in for elk and deer in New Mexico and hope for the best. I am planning to go chase barbary sheep so the $65.00 non resident hunting license doesn't feel like a wasted expense. Bullshot is spot on, the costs of becoming a hunter are not small and along with the confusing rules as well as misconceptions about public land access, it can serve as a significant barrier to entering the sport. It's a big reason why at 38 I am just figuring this all out and getting started. In the last year or so i have learned a lot from this forum, Randy's shows, and other sources that have lifted the shroud for me. I understand how the costs of licenses, tags, and stamps are used to protect and build this awesome resource, but if I didn't have the luck to end up with a wife with money, there is no way I would be able to afford this. It hasn't happened here, but in other forums I have been scoffed at for discussing the significant costs of entry. I have been listening to Steve Rinella's podcast lately and he dismisses people not being able to afford to hunt as poor money management, but the reality is some of us just don't have those resources. All of these factors contribute to dissuading interested people from getting into the sport and that is unfortunate particularly because of how it will effect the future of the sport.

 

[ImBillT]

While I can understand people don't want to be forced to buy a hunting licence to buy a bonus point I can also understand why game agencies wouldn't want to let people just buy points without adding anything to the coffers.

There are no points in NM. You’re just paying $65 for the privilege of entering the draw now. And that doesn’t include your $13 fee for each species. Other states at least give you points for your license fee when you don’t draw. At some point it’s not public hunting anymore. It’s just a hunting lease sold by the state instead of a citizen land owner.

 

[Dinkshooter]

Current total number of western states bonus and preference points=347
Cost associated with accumulation=unknown, but I would be scared to add it up
Number of tags I fully expect to draw this year=0