Any Montanans frustrated with population growth, sprawl, rising prices, etc?
- Thread starter Dougfirtree
- Start date
Business owners crutch, least in NW MT, staffing.
Rent is sky high and employment opportunities for the limited "local business owners" are nil.
Aside from restaurant owners, of which fewer each year are not chain corporate versions, very few exist.
Maybe a standout mechanic shop, oil change. What's considered "locally owned"? True Value?
Sure, large swaths of alfalfa fields, etc are mostly(?) local business... the further one routes away from the Boze, Zoo, etc...
Mom&Pops ---> Big box ---> Bezos.
Rent is sky high and employment opportunities for the limited "local business owners" are nil.
Aside from restaurant owners, of which fewer each year are not chain corporate versions, very few exist.
Maybe a standout mechanic shop, oil change. What's considered "locally owned"? True Value?
Sure, large swaths of alfalfa fields, etc are mostly(?) local business... the further one routes away from the Boze, Zoo, etc...
Mom&Pops ---> Big box ---> Bezos.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
You are the adventurous sort! Are you headed to Canada to hunt the "big grey wolves" or elsewhere?
Don't delete those Bob Marshall waypoints ... you'll be back!
I'm a business owner. I've benefited in my CPA and Pension Administration businesses. No benefit or detriment to the media production business. Many of our long-time MT resident clients who are self-employed have benefited.
For me, I'd prefer no growth. In fact, I'd prefer a real estate crash so my employees could have a better chance of owning a house.
The most recent eye opener for me was spending a week with our sweepstakes winner from southern California. He is like most of us; loves the outdoors and just wants a good place to raise his three kids. Both spouses work, and by any account from the behavior of his eleven year-old who was on the hunt with us, they are doing a great job raising those kids.
At least twice a day he would tell me something and I would respond with "You've gotta be kidding me." The crime, the school systems, the inability to even buy ammo without checks or waiting periods. The things we take for granted that they cannot do without serious planning or headache. The crowding no matter what they try to do outdoors would cause me to not want to go.
I could say the same for the times I travel to Portland or Seattle; places that seem like a different world to my country bumpkin Montana ass. Ever drive the Wasatch Front at rush hour, what my LDS friends in SLC call "The Mormon 500?" Those are just a few of the many where millions and millions and more millions are stuck living lives they really aren't that happy with. They are reaching the tipping point and getting out. When they get out, they go to places that are feeling the pressures of this growth.
Humans are a lot like elk. We find better, safer, more productive places, and we will take some risks to get there and stay there. That is what is happening, at least from what I see in Bozeman. It has been happening in a big way since the last real estate crash in 2009, with the rate of influx ramping up in a huge way the last few years.
Now, with many employers allowing employees to work remotely, the growth has ramped up even further. I can't speak for other MT cities, but Bozeman is awash with telecommuters who choose to live here rather than the office HQ in some big city. They make $500K while working from home and flying to the office HQ for a week or two each month. They can't believe how good they have it. And they are telling their peers about it.
It is not stopping. When compared to the places many currently live, these new arrivals are willing to take some risks, changes in lifestyle, finding a new circle of friends, changes in weather, you name it, to live in the place they see on TV or read about or hear about. Compared to what our sweepstakes winner told me, the worst location I might conjure up in Montana would be an undiscovered gem for many folks like him.
The building and growth will stop when demand for a better life stops. That demand will stop when the difference between what MT or ID or WY or (insert booming western state here) have to offer is not much different than the locations people are coming from. Given there is a huge gap between those two lifestyles and ways of life at this point, it seems this change we are experiencing is going to continue for some time. The question for me, what can I do to keep the things I love from being messed up in the process.
I can relate to their motivation in many ways. My wife and I came here on our honeymoon 32 years ago. After two weeks of fishing, camping, and hiking, we decided we would move here no matter what it took including the 30-50% pay cuts we absorbed. When I told my national CPA firm I was leaving to Montana, they asked me what it would take to keep me. I told them an elk and deer tag every year, a chance at moose/goat/sheep, mallards out my back door, mountains to hike after work, a five-minute commute, and a lot fewer people. Now with telecommuting, some don't even have to quit their jobs and scratch out new businesses to make the move here.
I made a similar assessment over 30 years ago and I can relate to some of what is happening today, albeit a different priority and a different change in pay cut than I took. Hell, this is the same assessment that the first settlers made when they came west and the same assessment when folks moved to Montana since statehood, just different priorities they were seeking and different risks that were taken.
This trend ain't changing, so what can I to do to try preserve the things I most loved about where I moved 30+ years ago?
For me, I'd prefer no growth. In fact, I'd prefer a real estate crash so my employees could have a better chance of owning a house.
The most recent eye opener for me was spending a week with our sweepstakes winner from southern California. He is like most of us; loves the outdoors and just wants a good place to raise his three kids. Both spouses work, and by any account from the behavior of his eleven year-old who was on the hunt with us, they are doing a great job raising those kids.
At least twice a day he would tell me something and I would respond with "You've gotta be kidding me." The crime, the school systems, the inability to even buy ammo without checks or waiting periods. The things we take for granted that they cannot do without serious planning or headache. The crowding no matter what they try to do outdoors would cause me to not want to go.
I could say the same for the times I travel to Portland or Seattle; places that seem like a different world to my country bumpkin Montana ass. Ever drive the Wasatch Front at rush hour, what my LDS friends in SLC call "The Mormon 500?" Those are just a few of the many where millions and millions and more millions are stuck living lives they really aren't that happy with. They are reaching the tipping point and getting out. When they get out, they go to places that are feeling the pressures of this growth.
Humans are a lot like elk. We find better, safer, more productive places, and we will take some risks to get there and stay there. That is what is happening, at least from what I see in Bozeman. It has been happening in a big way since the last real estate crash in 2009, with the rate of influx ramping up in a huge way the last few years.
Now, with many employers allowing employees to work remotely, the growth has ramped up even further. I can't speak for other MT cities, but Bozeman is awash with telecommuters who choose to live here rather than the office HQ in some big city. They make $500K while working from home and flying to the office HQ for a week or two each month. They can't believe how good they have it. And they are telling their peers about it.
It is not stopping. When compared to the places many currently live, these new arrivals are willing to take some risks, changes in lifestyle, finding a new circle of friends, changes in weather, you name it, to live in the place they see on TV or read about or hear about. Compared to what our sweepstakes winner told me, the worst location I might conjure up in Montana would be an undiscovered gem for many folks like him.
The building and growth will stop when demand for a better life stops. That demand will stop when the difference between what MT or ID or WY or (insert booming western state here) have to offer is not much different than the locations people are coming from. Given there is a huge gap between those two lifestyles and ways of life at this point, it seems this change we are experiencing is going to continue for some time. The question for me, what can I do to keep the things I love from being messed up in the process.
I can relate to their motivation in many ways. My wife and I came here on our honeymoon 32 years ago. After two weeks of fishing, camping, and hiking, we decided we would move here no matter what it took including the 30-50% pay cuts we absorbed. When I told my national CPA firm I was leaving to Montana, they asked me what it would take to keep me. I told them an elk and deer tag every year, a chance at moose/goat/sheep, mallards out my back door, mountains to hike after work, a five-minute commute, and a lot fewer people. Now with telecommuting, some don't even have to quit their jobs and scratch out new businesses to make the move here.
I made a similar assessment over 30 years ago and I can relate to some of what is happening today, albeit a different priority and a different change in pay cut than I took. Hell, this is the same assessment that the first settlers made when they came west and the same assessment when folks moved to Montana since statehood, just different priorities they were seeking and different risks that were taken.
This trend ain't changing, so what can I to do to try preserve the things I most loved about where I moved 30+ years ago?
DouglasR
Well-known member
Can we just draw a line around the mountains in the lower 48 and kick everyone out after the next generation like they did in that show about those Alaskan homesteaders and just force everyone to move to the Midwest?
Maybe give everyone 90 days a year of mountain time and you have to primitive camp
When I first started visiting summit county my uniformed, uneducated ass just assumed everything north of Silverthorne was protected and nothing else could be built there.
Urban sprawl is gross to see on our Midwestern farmland, but it beats destroying what y’all have out there.
Who TF is the developer who is proud of himself for building a new subdivision of McMansions in our last remaining wild places?
Sincerely,
Scum bag Doug.
Maybe give everyone 90 days a year of mountain time and you have to primitive camp
When I first started visiting summit county my uniformed, uneducated ass just assumed everything north of Silverthorne was protected and nothing else could be built there.
Urban sprawl is gross to see on our Midwestern farmland, but it beats destroying what y’all have out there.
Who TF is the developer who is proud of himself for building a new subdivision of McMansions in our last remaining wild places?
Sincerely,
Scum bag Doug.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Likely just another nimrod trying to make a buck and not really appreciative of wild places.
My wife and I visited Frisco, Colorado, a few years ago and were appalled by the billboards, neon signs, development along the highway amidst such a beautiful backdrop of mountain scenery. Gosh, that could never happen to the Gallatin Valley!
Well ... as I drove home the other evening, I was stunned by the number of lighted billboards, the MJ weed business facilities, the development along HWY 191, and the construction of the five to six hundred new residential units at little "rural" Gallatin Gateway (near mouth of Gallatin Canyon). For me as a third generation grandson of Montana homesteaders, it gives pause, and causes me to assess reality and strive to maintain a positive attitude about sharing the beauty and bounty of Montana ... but it ain't easy!
elkduds
Well-known member
You'll have better luck trying to steer immigration than stop it. Cutting edge growth planning is the irresistible force, greed under the guise of property rights and personal freedom is the immovable object. MT can learn from the mistakes of CO, but it can't avoid the influx as Randy noted above. No matter your heritage, if you aren't ahead of the growth trend, it is already ahead of you. A shared vision of how you all want it to be will serve you better than one of how you wish it still was.
2rocky
Well-known member
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It ain't just Montana, as Big Fin pointed out. Sometimes I think the Rural "sanctuaries" are adjacent to the big urban areas by way of Conservation Easements.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Factual! My perception is the reality is generated by a culture of ego centric, ultra conservative private property "rights" radicals who have escaped urbania to import their wealth to Montana to purchase private properties with the vision of the "wild west" where you can do whatever you wanna do with your deeded property and to-hell with the community's values.
The culture is also reflected in the denial of "public property rights" in that preservation, conservation, even recognition of the wilderness and public land values of Montana is so very difficult to perpetuate.
Bambistew
Well-known member
MT has changed so much in the last 20 years it's unrecognizable from Colorado, to me. I could move back tomorrow keep my job, spend more time with family, etc, but just can't. The hunting is a shell of what it was, fishing is a mob scene of high dollar insta-fishermen, and people recreating everywhere and getting more and more crowed on public every year. There is really very little wild country left in MT, or at least wild in my mind and it's diminishing every year.
There is no stopping development there is too much private land in MT. There will he 2 million people in MT in 20 years. Way too much money being invested the last couple years to stop it.
There is no stopping development there is too much private land in MT. There will he 2 million people in MT in 20 years. Way too much money being invested the last couple years to stop it.
antlerradar
Well-known member
And we will still have OTC licenses and a 12 week season.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
With year around "shoulder" seasons!
2rocky
Well-known member
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I don't believe it's possible to preserve the things you most love about MT. Adapt, maybe though to maintain with this unforeseen duration - wave of migration? The culture of people entering in such volume exceeds the ability for them to adapt to "The Last Best Place" intent for preservation of conservation, etc.
It's akin to pioneers push into Crow territory of the Bitterroots.
This site is unique. It captures a fraction of outdoor enthusiasts (Rocky Mountain region and elsewhere) emphasized on conservation interests, as it is... Too many flocking to these States w/o the i.e. "Welcome to Montana" pamphlet that keeps their attention long enough to steer towards the select quantity of conservation minded folks, as found within a percentage of Hunt Talk Members.
Montana and likeminded States would have to make Public Service Announcements to such a repetitive degree - in order to garner enough people to change the tidal thoughts of "Yellowstone", etc...
You're likely correct in that assessment. But, many of us are stubborn enough to try.
JEL
Well-known member
I can’t complain about the influx too much. My great granddad did the same in 1913 seeking a better life. I now own the land he homesteaded. Lucky for me it is in a place not desirable to the influx.
Agreed. And it will get harder as years go by. mtmuley
I feel the same way about Nevada, we don't need any more people moving here.
Although I'm sure the people who lived here before my parents came to NV felt the same way.
I've lived here for the last 57 years and I always tell people complaining about the traffic or the sprawl or whatever that if they haven't lived here for at least 40 years they need to go back where they came from because they are part of the problem.
Although I'm sure the people who lived here before my parents came to NV felt the same way.
I've lived here for the last 57 years and I always tell people complaining about the traffic or the sprawl or whatever that if they haven't lived here for at least 40 years they need to go back where they came from because they are part of the problem.
Nick87
Well-known member
I don't think it matters where you are, your seeing an influx right now. Where I'm at in northern IL. (Not exactly on anybody bucket list)Is no different, where these people are coming from I have no idea. But the money they are bringing with them to buy houses etc. Sure is upsetting the natural balance of things and making it difficult for locals that's for sure. I've seen more bmw's, Mercedes, etc. In the last 18 months than I have combined the previous 30 years.I feel the same way about Nevada, we don't need any more people moving here.
Although I'm sure the people who lived here before my parents came to NV felt the same way.
I've lived here for the last 57 years and I always tell people complaining about the traffic or the sprawl or whatever that if they haven't lived here for at least 40 years they need to go back where they came from because they are part of the problem.
Ps- I hate every God damn one of them and I'm sure someone will feel the same way when we leave here to find somewhere less crowded.
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