Anti-Hunter/Anti-Bison bill up in Senate Fish and Game Tommorrow

[shoots-straight]

Cowboy, my question to those papers, was why is the escape of 200 Bison from a pasture news? The answer is the Livestock Industry wants it to be. It's a timing thing. Any other year it would be in the local paper but not the state as a whole. I live in a subdivision, a herd of cattle got out of their pasture and stomped the hell out of my yard. Wonder why no headlines for me?

I've read some negative responses from supposed sportsman on this thread. The first thing I'll address is the fact that this would be some sort of introduction, or re-introduction, which the anti's could use to keep us from managing as soon as the range areas were at capacity. This isn't even close to that. It's no different than when our state moves Big Horn Rams, or Rocky Mt Goats, to fill in habitat areas that don't have them anymore. We already have Bison hunts. There's no case for a suit. There's no federal jurisdiction here. I have a friend that has over 2500 acres of land, on that land hundreds of the neighbors cattle, and horses come in and abuse his riparian areas. The state told him he had to fence the animals off his lands. It was his responsibility to do so. Well , as the shoe is on the other foot for once, I'd don't care, fence your lands off from the Bison, or the Elk, or whatever. I'm so sick of whiners it's not funny. Bison have a right to the lands of Montana, more so than cattle or sheep. I vote Bison.

 

[BuzzH]

Cowboy,

First off, I'm a MT resident who has been on sabatical to Wyoming exploring the hunting opportunities a bit further south for a while. I hunted MT for 21 years as a resident, the last 10 as a NR. So, you can keep your out-of-state comments to yourself.

The solution is pretty easy, reintroduce bison to public lands in the CMR and Rocky Mountain Front...I'm not real keen on the Spotted Dog.

Wait a few years until the population warrants a hunt and start issuing tags.

Let the landowners carry on with the whining.

Easy.

I've always found it odd that people make easy things difficult.

 

[belly-deep]

The solution is pretty easy, reintroduce bison to public lands in the CMR and Rocky Mountain Front...I'm not real keen on the Spotted Dog.

.

What about the fencing issue and its effect on antelope, deer, and elk? That is my main concern. Is the Bison issue worth it to you if it means increased mortality on antelope, deer, and elk herds? To me it is not. I can hunt deer, elk and antelope every year and if those herds are impacted, then it will impact me as well. I would guess that buffalo tags would be as hard to draw as the moose/sheep/goat tags are presently. I can't find any rationalization for introducing an animal that will immeadately impact deer and elk herds, when all it gives me a chance to do is apply for the 1% draw odds.

I guess I'd take better deer/elk/antelope hunting for the rest of my life over the remote possibility of getting to hunt a buffalo once in that same time period. If this was just a "turn 'em loose and let them populate" thing I would feel differently. Unfortunately, I see the buffalo negatively impacting other game herds.

 

[cowboy]

What about the fencing issue and its effect on antelope, deer, and elk? That is my main concern. Is the Bison issue worth it to you if it means increased mortality on antelope, deer, and elk herds? To me it is not. I can hunt deer, elk and antelope every year and if those herds are impacted, then it will impact me as well. I would guess that buffalo tags would be as hard to draw as the moose/sheep/goat tags are presently. I can't find any rationalization for introducing an animal that will immeadately impact deer and elk herds, when all it gives me a chance to do is apply for the 1% draw odds.

I guess I'd take better deer/elk/antelope hunting for the rest of my life over the remote possibility of getting to hunt a buffalo once in that same time period. If this was just a "turn 'em loose and let them populate" thing I would feel differently. Unfortunately, I see the buffalo negatively impacting other game herds.

belly-deep: You have stated it very well.
Now the solution has been suggested to put the buffalo in the CMR and the Rocky Mtn Front. Lets compare that to the source of the problem - Yellowstone National Park where the buffalo are coming from. YNP has 2,219,789 approx. acres which is 3472 approx. sq. mi. and they won't stay in there - not enough feed so they want to come out. Real problem is there are too many head for the winter food available.

A buffalo is an ungulate (hoofed animal) - all ungulates eat approx. 3% of their body weight a day -do the math on a deer-antelope-elk-and buffalo and you tell me that putting buffalo out on public land will not effect our deer, elk etc.. Please don't forget that come winter the feed range is where the major concern of mine is. Putting buffalo out on State/Federal land is going to be at the expense of the current wildlife that are there now.

Here's my solution: Let's put all our efforts into changing history and put the pressure on the Fed. Gov't to allow buffalo hunting in YNP (I know fat chance)- Hunters happy, private landowners happy, elk and deer happy on their home turf. Tell the Feds to take care of their own problem. Someone above stated there was a reason our forefathers did what they did with the wolf and buffalo - Those old timers were a lot smarter than we give them credit for.

 

[1_pointer]

Someone above stated there was a reason our forefathers did what they did with the wolf and buffalo - Those old timers were a lot smarter than we give them credit for.

Those same 'smart' old timers did the same thing, or nearly so, to deer, elk, and antelope...

 

[MattK]

1 pointer- I'm sure that's what he meant...getting rid of all those stupid elk that are eating all the cow's hay. One instance was just on the local news about the bitteroot. Those elk are a pure menace. They've busted some fencing and the "cowboy" on the news had to sit in his pickup past dark to make sure none of those pesky elk got into his hay. Yep, they should definitely be dealt with. I say we get rid of everything other than cattle as they are the only real deal in Montana!... It amazes me how MT cowers to the rancher so much...even when dealing with public lands. It makes me feel like we are still in the cattle baron days (especially with the FWP). I'm not positive Bison are a good idea but I'm surely not basing my decision on a bunch of whining ranchers who only see animals as a revenue source...nothing else.

 

[Ben Lamb]

What about the fencing issue and its effect on antelope, deer, and elk? That is my main concern. Is the Bison issue worth it to you if it means increased mortality on antelope, deer, and elk herds? To me it is not. I can hunt deer, elk and antelope every year and if those herds are impacted, then it will impact me as well. I would guess that buffalo tags would be as hard to draw as the moose/sheep/goat tags are presently. I can't find any rationalization for introducing an animal that will immeadately impact deer and elk herds, when all it gives me a chance to do is apply for the 1% draw odds.

I guess I'd take better deer/elk/antelope hunting for the rest of my life over the remote possibility of getting to hunt a buffalo once in that same time period. If this was just a "turn 'em loose and let them populate" thing I would feel differently. Unfortunately, I see the buffalo negatively impacting other game herds.

Belly,

The fencing thing gets blown out of proportion. APF runs a 42 inch fence, with the third wire hot. Yes, they'll get a bull out of the fence from time to time, but for the most part, if you provide enough ground and feed for them, they'll be alright. Turner is another great example of having wildlife friendly fences and running bison. Both on the Flying D and the Snowcrest, he has a lot of bison, and not a lot of movement outside of his pastures. The key is enough room.

Places like CMR where APF lands adjoin, creating enough space to geographically contain them would be a good fit, IMO. Spotted Dog could work in so much as we'd need a place to put a conservation herd until larger landscapes are available.

all of those examples and options have not hurt other species of wildlife in the least. I think that MT can put a good enough plan together that both respects livestock producers, and conserves those big shaggies.

The real problem is that folks at the legislature don't want to even talk about it beyond fighting the same old fights.

 

[BuzzH]

Belly deep,

Try some research...bison, elk, antelope, and deer all evolved together on the landscape of Montana for several thousand years.

What makes you think they'll negatively impact each other?

 

[belly-deep]

Belly deep,

Try some research...bison, elk, antelope, and deer all evolved together on the landscape of Montana for several thousand years.

What makes you think they'll negatively impact each other?

Read my post carefully, Buzz.

Its the fence they have to put up for the bison, not the bison themselves that worry me.

As far as the evolution thing goes...lions and wolves also evolved with elk, deer, and antelope, so where does that leave us?

 

[belly-deep]

Belly,

The fencing thing gets blown out of proportion. APF runs a 42 inch fence, with the third wire hot.

So now you want to electrify the whole thing? You're nuts!

You do realize that YOU (and me) will be paying for all of this?

Forget all about the elk and deer for a minute and let me ask you this. So you're out hunting and you run into one of these fences and you need to cross it. What do you do? Buffalo fence wire is stretched much tighter than cattle fence and the bottom wire is too close the ground to crawl under. You gonna climb the thing and chance zapping your nuts?

 

[Ben Lamb]

I'm married. She doesn't let me go out w/ them, so I'll be alright in that regard.

If bison go to spotted dog, then ARCO will be paying for the fencing because of how the funding came about (NRD funds). If we're talking about other WMA's, then yes: Hunters will be paying for the conservation of bison, and in this regard, you're looking at paying for wildlife friendly fencing on smaller areas to confine a conservation herd. The only other option right now is to either privatize the public wildlife, or slaughter them.

Again, using enough room, you can geographically contain bison. We're not talking about thousands of bison running around, we're talking about smaller herds of bison, on landscapes that accommodate them.

BTW - SB 144, as it's written, will end the bison hunt we have right now. It clearly state4s that no wild bison would be allowed in Montana. That means the ones coming out of the park, and hunted by anglos and the tribes, would never get beyond the holding pens.

 

[Sytes]

I am not opposed to fence ideas.. though as belly describes for crossing etc... Needs to have attention (if not already - I assume such has been integrated) to ensure fencing has sideline fence every now and then - creating access points or those fancy bench steps...

Landowners / cattle ranchers - (not to speak as if all... though I am sure a good majority) tend to enjoy free range of private cattle on public land - though god forbid bison may have a future to graze... IMO, they are just protecting their future $ profited on our public land... No financial incentive for them to support such - nor should there be...

 

[shoots-straight]

It's a sad day, when people who have the privilege to hunt, are against perpetuating more game animals. It's a good thing, the generation before us took it upon themselves to re-introduce, Elk, Antelope, Rocky Mountain sheep etc. Should all these animals be fenced in? Isn't Montana big enough that Bison could live on public lands, without fear of being fenced in. I say let the Rancher fence his land off. It's his responsibility. I want Bison to feed on mine.

 

[BuzzH]

belly-deep,

Have you looked at the size of the CMR lately? How about the RMF?

Why do we need to fence public land?

You're over-thinking an easy concept.

 

[belly-deep]

belly-deep,

Have you looked at the size of the CMR lately? How about the RMF?

Why do we need to fence public land?

You're over-thinking an easy concept.

If that means I don't belive the bison will stay on the public land without a fence, then yes, I guess I am over-thinking it.

 

[belly-deep]

It's a sad day, when people who have the privilege to hunt, are against perpetuating more game animals. It's a good thing, the generation before us took it upon themselves to re-introduce, Elk, Antelope, Rocky Mountain sheep etc. Should all these animals be fenced in? Isn't Montana big enough that Bison could live on public lands, without fear of being fenced in. I say let the Rancher fence his land off. It's his responsibility. I want Bison to feed on mine.

Am I the only one thinking realistically here?

1) I'm not against perpetuating more game animals...I'm for maximizing opportuntity and keeping the populations we already have. I see 6ft, tightly-strung, 6-wire fences as as fawn/calf killers. I mentioned this already, but I'll say it again: If introducing an animal, which in all likelyhood, I'll have to overcome <1% draw odds to kill, means reducing elk and mule deer numbers (two species that I can hunt every year) then I am not for it. I am looking out for the welfare of those species, since in my lifetime, 99.9% of my hunting hours will be devoted to those two animals.

2) Elk, antelope, and sheep did NOT require re-fencing enough of Montana to keep the fence wire companies in business for a decade, and nobody knew at the time of elk reintroductions that it would cut so far into mule deer herds.

3) No, Montana isn't big enough to let the bison live without the fear of them having to be fenced in. You could drop a herd of bison off in the very middle of the breaks and eventually, one of them would make it onto private land. That is just what animals do. They wander and move around. Because of that, before the first buffalo ever sets foot in the Breaks or the RMF, every fence that borders public land will have to be replaced with buffalo fence.

Why? Because we're back in reality, not lala land. Who's responsibility is it to manage wildlife? It is that of the state's. Who manages the hunts when elk are eating a ranchers hay in January? The state. Even if the rancher is an absolute prick to the FWP...remember the Snowies?

So guess who will make sure, through lawsuits or legislation, that FWP dollars are paying for that fence?

Trust me, FWP dollars will be paying for the fence if bison are ever reintroduced.

4) And that brings us to the last thing I want to say. I'm not anti-bison in the sense that I don't want buffalo running around and people with bison tags in their hands. I'd love for bison to be reintroduced, heck, I'd love it if everybody left Montana and we could ride horses around the mountains shooting things with our '73 Winchesters and a leather shell belt full of .44-40s. That would be just peachy.

The problem is we're all here. And because we are, and people have private land and cattle, there will have to be fences for these bison, and as much as I would love the ranchers to have to put up their own fences, I don't see that happening either.

Knowing how these kind of things tend to work out, I don't see bison reintroduction to be worth the trade off, and that is why I'm against it. You guys can wish and speak out against the cattle industry as much as you want, but be honest, how else do you think this thing will shake out in the end? Do you really see the FWP just plunking a herd of bison down in the Breaks or the RMF and letting the wind scatter them as soon as they get the authorization to do so? Before the first buffalo sets foot in the Breaks, the entire thing will be fenced with buffalo fence. Before the first buffalo sets foot in the RMF, the entire public land boundary, from the Canadian border to Rogers pass will have to be fenced with buffalo fence. I don't see it going any other way, and for that reason I'm against it.

 

[1_pointer]

Matt- You took that places that I had no intention of going...

 

[Ben Lamb]

Belly,

The points you bring up are certainly valid and I think that we need to get the answers before bison hit the ground. SB 144 precludes us from ever looking for the answers. The answer might very well be "no, not in MT." Until we can get the pieces together to find that answer, why would we not try?

Another point is this: if the state doesn't do something that preserves and enhances the genetics of bison, then we're looking at another listable species. As much fun as we've had with wolves, grizz and fairy shrimp, I'm not sure I want to spend another decade doing what the USFWS wants us to do to maintain the viability of a species.

As far as where bison could go:
CMR has possibility simply because of the APF project. It creates the buffer between livestock and bison. I don't believe that the Front would be a good fit due to the patchwork of fed, state and private lands. There's no one block of land big enough to accommodate bison. I don't even think that having conservation herds behind a fence on portions of Sun River or Ear Mountain would work due to the vast number of elk out there. Too much competition.

What's really at risk is the future of bison, not the future hunting opportunity that could come.

 

[Sytes]

Well stated, Belly. A good practical evaluation.

Glad gents such as BLamb and the organizations they support are able to sift through all the considerations and for the vast majority of issues - do a great job representing our interests in wildlife.

 

[shoots-straight]

Knowing how these kind of things tend to work out, I don't see bison reintroduction to be worth the trade off, and that is why I'm against it. You guys can wish and speak out against the cattle industry as much as you want, but be honest, how else do you think this thing will shake out in the end? Do you really see the FWP just plunking a herd of bison down in the Breaks or the RMF and letting the wind scatter them as soon as they get the authorization to do so? Before the first buffalo sets foot in the Breaks, the entire thing will be fenced with buffalo fence. Before the first buffalo sets foot in the RMF, the entire public land boundary, from the Canadian border to Rogers pass will have to be fenced with buffalo fence. I don't see it going any other way, and for that reason I'm against it.

Belly, I would be with you,if the only way to transplant Bison was by fencing the wild lands off. I'm not sure that it would. There's already wild herds of Bison in the lower 48. Does anyone know if the wild herds in Utah, or the Dakota's have to be fenced, or are fenced? The acreage in Utah, is a 2 million acre chunk of land. That would be a lot of fence. If the Bison are given large enough chunks of land, they may be taught somewhat to stay off private. These are debates that need to be discussed. If SB 144 passes, we won't get that chance too.

You are right though, we would never have large enough herds to do much with, in terms of giving large amounts of hunting opportunity too.