Another retirement question

[VikingsGuy]

May i ask what you do for a living?

I am one of HT’s resident lawyers.

 

[mxracer317]

I am one of HT’s resident lawyers.

Lol. The combativeness makes perfect sense now. Hopefully you’re one of the “good” lawyers that don’t over gouge your clients. It would be ignorant for me to assume all lawyers bend their clients over in fees.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Let’s get back to keeping the post on track. Feel free to PM me so people don’t have to read our opinions about each other’s professions.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Very few advisors are fiduciaries. It’s not something a person can claim just because. It takes a lot of legal paperwork, costs, passing certain licenses and they have to be registered with either the state or securities exchange commission (SEC).

Being a fiduciary merely means the law requires a person to place the interests of the person you are a fiduciary of ahead of your own personal interests (some states also add some very minimum competency standard). It is not some skill or knowledge based label, nor is it unique to financial advisors. In fact the industry has (and continues to) fought laws to make them be fiduciaries in all cases. But a few have found marketing value in the term. It does not prevent the re-selling of low load index funds with high commissions under the guise of higher service levels nor does it prevent the selling of investment strategies that are too complex for the situation if it can be argued other are doing the same.

 

[mxracer317]

Being a fiduciary merely means the law requires a person to place the interests of the person you are a fiduciary of ahead of your own personal interests (some states also add some very minimum competency standard). It is not some skill or knowledge based label, nor is it unique to financial advisors. In fact the industry has (and continues to) to fought laws to make them be fiduciaries in all cases. But a few have found marketing value in the term. It does not prevent the re-selling of low load index funds with high commissions under the guise of higher service levels nor does it prevent the selling of investment strategies that are too complex for the situation if it can be argued other are doing the same.

Agree to disagree, friend. I don’t profess to know everything about your profession. Please don’t make the same mistake about mine.

Kindly, if you have further comments… please feel free to PM me. I’d rather get back to the original questions people have. Not banter back and forth with you.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Lol. The combativeness makes perfect sense now. Hopefully you’re one of the “good” lawyers that don’t over gouge your clients. It would be ignorant for me to assume all lawyers bend their clients over in fees.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Let’s get back to keeping the post on track. Feel free to PM me so people don’t have to read our opinions about each other’s professions.

I welcome your general inputs as we all offer here, but when you pivoted to offering professional services via PM and spinning standard marketing BS designed to make folks think they needed your services I felt it appropriate to offer another perspective.

If you ever see me offering my legal services via PM and offering generalized marketing promotional pitches for my industry, or tauting myself as a fiduciary, feel free to call me out.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Agree to disagree, friend. I don’t profess to know everything about your profession. Please don’t make the same mistake about mine.

It’s never a good look when real estate agents and financial advisors argue the law with attorneys. Fiduciary status is a legal principle applied to many settings, finance just being one of them - so those standards are in my book not yours.

But to one of your points. When you stop promoting your service/status to others, I will stop replying to others.

Take care.

 

[mxracer317]

It’s never a good look when real estate agents and financial advisors argue the law with attorneys. Fiduciary status is a legal principle applied to many settings, finance just being one of them - so those standards are in my book not yours.

But to one of your points. When you stop promoting your service/status to others, I will stop replying to others.

Take care.

Really? You point out who people should listen to and follow for advice, first, and casually I mention if any fellow hunters want another opinion and professional advice, they can PM me for a complimentary chat -and that’s wrong? Never made mention of our company, posted websites or anything.

Your subtle haughtiness about being a lawyer and at the top of the food chain is exactly why people have a negative connotation about lawyers.

I tried to steer the conversation back multiple times. At this point, you seem to be most interested in acting like a jackass and trying to intimidate me by suggesting that financial professionals have no right to challenge lawyers opinions.

Take care yourself.

 

[SAJ-99]

Agree to disagree, friend. I don’t profess to know everything about your profession. Please don’t make the same mistake about mine.

Kindly, if you have further comments… please feel free to PM me. I’d rather get back to the original questions people have. Not banter back and forth with you.

You can disagree, but @VikingsGuy is correct. And I can be a neutral party because I hate FAs and lawyers equally. That said, I do agree that everyone that elects to use a FA should choose one that is legally a fiduciary. 100%. However, remember that just because they are a fiduciary doesn't mean they can't sell you bad stuff. They just have to be able to make an argument it is in your "best interest". Things like load funds, annuities, etc.

Advisors used to be called Stock Brokers. When that name got a bad reputation they changed to Financial Advisor. Sometimes broker is still used in the media. The Fiduciary standard is difficult to define when you are a "broker" which is the middleman in a transaction between two parties. It is almost impossible to do the transaction and claim to do it in both clients best interest. This simple fact seems to elude Elizabeth Warren. Pretty sure lawyers can't represent both sides in a case. RE agents can (dual agency) but I don't see how it is legal. I guess I need to add RE agents in with FAs and lawyers. Damn, my list is growing.

 

[VikingsGuy]

RE agents can (dual agency) but I don't see how it is legal.

It is legal by informed consent. Many conflicts of interest can be waived - even some with lawyers (but not all).

 

[RobG]

You can disagree, but @VikingsGuy is correct. And I can be a neutral party because I hate FAs and lawyers equally.

Me too... my FA was so bad I wound up getting more than $1000 from a class action suit against the life insurance policy he sold me. I guess lawyers are ok when they make me money.

 

[mxracer317]

Me too... my FA was so bad I wound up getting more than $1000 from a class action suit against the life insurance policy he sold me. I guess lawyers are ok when they make me money.

Guess that settles it. All FA’s are bad and all lawyers have your best interests at heart.

Send me the name and numbers of a couple great lawyers that wouldn’t step over their own mother to make money. I’ve yet to met one

FYI @RobG, life insurance agents do not have a fiduciary standard. So your “FA” was an insurance agent, not an IAR. Happy to hear you got some money back!

 

[RobG]

I was sold that crap policy thirty years ago so things probably changed. I also got several little settlement claims from American Express mutual funds from another advisor so cracked down some. Now that I look back I can't believe how bad I got ripped off. Front end loads, high expense ratios, and a wrap fee on top of that. I was clueless, but how could I know?

The internet has made good information easier to get, but it's hard to sift the good from the bad. Many people need a financial advisor and the FA shouldn't work for free. I guess a fee-based one is good, but if you don't know anything about investing how are going to know if you have a good one?

 

[Pucky Freak]

Term is a waste of money. No return of your premiums unless a person passes away. Less than 1% of term policies are paid out. This is the reason why insurance companies make money hand over fist.

Eh? I pay 98 cents a day to ensure my family is taken of if I die unexpectedly. Seems like a great deal to me. The point is NOT to get a payout 99% of the time. The profit margins on term are slim because it is a simple, easy-to-understand, competitive product that is hard for companies to hide excessive costs in order to pad profits.

I’m referring to over-funded index universal life PROPERLY structured.

It’s now clear how you are making a living. Your commission on this product is what, x10-x20 what the agents selling term insurance make? Since the industry was not making much money on term they wrote a new narrative where now the POINT of life insurance is to be able to access the money you pay in. What a bunch of garbage. It should be illegal

 

[VikingsGuy]

Eh? I pay 98 cents a day to ensure my family is taken of if I die unexpectedly. Seems like a great deal to me. The point is NOT to get a payout 99% of the time. The profit margins on term are slim because it is a simple, easy-to-understand, competitive product that is hard for companies to hide excessive costs in order to pad profits.

It’s now clear how you are making a living. Your commission on this product is what, x10-x20 what the agents selling term insurance make? Since the industry was not making much money on term they wrote a new narrative where now the POINT of life insurance is to be able to access the money you pay in. What a bunch of garbage. It should be illegal

Structured life insurance has a place as an investment vehicle for folks expecting to be in the highest income tax bracket during retirement and whom have very large expected 401k required minimum distributions after age 72. Well less than 1% fall into this bucket I would guess, so this is not a great investment concept for the other 99%. And even then many of the products carry very heavy loads/commissions. But if you really are very high net worth, do you homework, make sure your tax and legal counsel pick it over with a fine tooth comb and push a very hard bargain they can be a useful tool. But not for the average or unsuspecting investor. Really not something I would float to a general audience like HT. And therein lies my distrust of FAs, they tend to recommend expensive products to investors who have no business messing with them. And then surprise surprise enough regular folks get burned, litigation ensues, settlements are paid at pennies for the dollar and the industry just crafts a new product with similar underlying problems and repeats the cycle.

 

[mxracer317]

I was sold that crap policy thirty years ago so things probably changed. I also got several little settlement claims from American Express mutual funds from another advisor so cracked down some. Now that I look back I can't believe how bad I got ripped off. Front end loads, high expense ratios, and a wrap fee on top of that. I was clueless, but how could I know?

The internet has made good information easier to get, but it's hard to sift the good from the bad. Many people need a financial advisor and the FA shouldn't work for free. I guess a fee-based one is good, but if you don't know anything about investing how are going to know if you have a good one?

Sorry to hear about your experience man. That absolutely sucks! I think a lot of things in the industry have changed, especially because people are now seeing a lot of transparency with the internet. You can’t hide anymore if you’ve done stupid things. One of the things that you can do is go on FINRA broker check, work with CFP’s (certified financial planner), interview and ask questions, check out google reviews, ask for recommendations… and ultimately follow your gut instinct!

Finding a great advisor can make a world of difference. Best of luck with your journey, my dude.

 

[mxracer317]

Eh? I pay 98 cents a day to ensure my family is taken of if I die unexpectedly. Seems like a great deal to me. The point is NOT to get a payout 99% of the time. The profit margins on term are slim because it is a simple, easy-to-understand, competitive product that is hard for companies to hide excessive costs in order to pad profits.

It’s now clear how you are making a living. Your commission on this product is what, x10-x20 what the agents selling term insurance make? Since the industry was not making much money on term they wrote a new narrative where now the POINT of life insurance is to be able to access the money you pay in. What a bunch of garbage. It should be illegal

Haha. We don’t do term, because our clients are retirees. Do you know how much term insurance coverage costs for 60+ year old people? It’s prohibitively expensive.

Don’t take my question out of context, we were talking about generational wealth.

For younger people like you, buy term insurance for $.98 a day and call it what it is. Insurance coverage for “what ifs”.

But don’t plan on keeping it later in life to create generational wealth. Won’t happen.

PS. I keep laughing at all you people that Poopoo on life insurance that is properly structured. Do yourself a favor and read up on a properly structured policy that is designed with a “broken corridor”. I would wager a bet that my wealthy clients that understand why they use it, weren’t raised as financial fools. There is a reason their wealthy and have a team of investment professionals in their corner.

Say what you will, but facts are facts. Get all the facts and then make a decision.

 

[mxracer317]

Structured life insurance has a place as an investment vehicle for folks expecting to be in the highest income tax bracket during retirement and whom have very large expected 401k required minimum distributions after age 72. Well less than 1% fall into this bucket I would guess, so this is not a great investment concept for the other 99%. And even then many of the products carry very heavy loads/commissions. But if you really are very high net worth, do you homework, make sure your tax and legal counsel pick it over with a fine tooth comb and push a very hard bargain they can be a useful tool. But not for the average or unsuspecting investor. Really not something I would float to a general audience like HT. And therein lies my distrust of FAs, they tend to recommend expensive products to investors who have no business messing with them. And then surprise surprise enough regular folks get burned, litigation ensues, settlements are paid at pennies for the dollar and the industry just crafts a new product with similar underlying problems and repeats the cycle.

You often seem to start off on the right track with your posts, and then seem to derail hard.

1) we’re talking about generational wealth. What that means is that someone is financially secure and is looking to leave a lot of money to loved ones. There is no way that you can earn more in the stock market, then leaving a large tax free insurance policy if that is your goal (unless you’re warren buffet).

“Really not something I would float to a general audience like HT” - so you’re making an assumption that people on this forum are poor? Wow, super arrogant.

2) several times now I have told people to look for fiduciaries and what to ask when interviewing advisors.

3) please point out to me where I made specific investment advice to anyone specific person, rather than merely saying if you’re trying to accomplish generational wealth, tax free life insurance is your best bet.

4) at this point I could care less if you distrust financial advisors. I would happen to suspect that more people would distrust lawyers if I had to take a guess. My experience with lawyers, and I’ve had many in my industry is they sit on a high horse and justify their expensive hourly fees.

I have YET to meet any client that has walked away and felt good about what any attorney has charged.

I heard a quote by Bernard Shaw that said “I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”

I know lawyers LOVE to argue. Shame on me for not realizing sooner that you would never back off and like rolling in the dirt.

 

[VikingsGuy]

PS. I keep laughing at all you people that Poopoo on life insurance that is properly structured. Do yourself a favor and read up on a properly structured policy that is designed with a “broken corridor”. I would wager a bet that my wealthy clients that understand why they use it, weren’t raised as financial fools. There is a reason their wealthy and have a team of investment professionals in their corner.

Say what you will, but facts are facts. Get all the facts and then make a decision.

No doubt these tools are one technique of high net worth folks with teams of investment professionals, but such folks aren't on hunting forums to find retirement planning advice. Again, my objection is FAs working with the average joe pushing the allusion that what works for the big guys must then be a game that will work for the little guys. If you are worth $100 million dollars and you have 10% of your future worth in a complex structured insurance vehicle, (a) you are not using a run of the mill over the counter structured policy, (b) there is no way you are paying the loads that the average retail policy is being sold for, and (c) if (when) the gov changes the loophole to close this door and the investment turns out poorly as a result, they remain very very rich anyway. This just isn't the case for the average joe/jane.

 

[VikingsGuy]

You often seem to start off on the right track with your posts, and then seem to derail hard.

So, when you agree with me I am on the right track and when I poke your balloon it is a hard derail - yup

“Really not something I would float to a general audience like HT” - so you’re making an assumption that people on this forum are poor? Wow, super arrogant.

Not at all, I just assume the HT crowd is the average crowd. The govt statistics point out that far less than 1% have the kind of wealth that warrants high complexity, high cost and risky investment vehicles. We on HT are the top 1% of public land hunters no doubt, but there is no reason to think we are a supersaturated group of ultra high net worth folks. And I am also assuming those among us who do fit this category (definitely not me) are not reading this thread for advice in any event. So you can cut the "arrogrant" labelling - It is a cheap distraction to the fact that I am just calling it as I see it and you don't like someone pointing out the full context of your sales pitch.

2) several times now I have told people to look for fiduciaries and what to ask when interviewing advisors.

Having a fiduciary is better than not, but fiduciaries (including lawyers) give crappy advice every day. It is not some magic word that makes one's advice any better.

4) at this point I could care less if you distrust financial advisors. I would happen to suspect that more people would distrust lawyers if I had to take a guess. My experience with lawyers, and I’ve had many in my industry is they sit on a high horse and justify their expensive hourly fees.

I have YET to meet any client that has walked away and felt good about what any attorney has charged.

I heard a quote by Bernard Shaw that said “I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”

I know lawyers LOVE to argue. Shame on me for not realizing sooner that you would never back off and like rolling in the dirt.

I am happy to join you on a thread about lawyers - lots to complain about there too - but on this thread, it is just a cheap distraction from folks challenging your sales pitch.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I have YET to meet any client that has walked away and felt good about what any attorney has charged.

Because lawyers actually have to make their fees transparent, we don't get to hide them in layers and layers of fees, charges, and commissions that sap client assets for decades.

I know lawyers LOVE to argue. Shame on me for not realizing sooner that you would never back off and like rolling in the dirt.

As noted before I am not at all arguing with you - I am just offering a counter perspective on your sales pitch. I am not rolling in the dirt with you, I am just making sure the full context stays apparent in the thread as you keep spinning the discussion and not really responding to the various concerns raised by others. Each HT member can then make their own informed choice.