Another chance for salmon!

[Delw]

It makes a big differnce to how many adult salmon make it up river to spawn, But I see your point also on how many fry make it back as well.... But you cant say
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The problem isn't how many adult fish get caught or netted on their way back up the rivers, it's how many smolts make it to the ocean.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Buzz on the cowlitz and the other rivers the salmon in them isnt 10% of what it was in the late 70's so those are not good numbers....

Oh I agree our goverment screwed up big time when they let the indians net the salmon....


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Get over the Indian harvest, its going to happen and its a guranteed right that YOUR GOVERNMENT agreed to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wouldnt this apply to the dams as well... I mean afterall our goverment built them.

Buzz the dams were built in the early 1900's and they had decent runs in the early 70's.. I dont disagree with you that if the dams come down it will make a huge impact... I am saying I think they should stop the indians as well..

Up to the tricity's there are 1000's of miles of tributaries that go into the columbia. these have very poor salmon runs and dont have dams, so damns cant be the cause of that part...

Yes I agree that the smallies and walleye are there due to the dams which also cause a huge problem with the fry comeing back to the ocean...

Delw

 

[BuzzH]

Delw, take a look at a map of the Columbia River Basin, 211 dams in the Columbia drainage basin...thats a lot of dams...for any system.

Also, the dams were not "built in the early 1900's"

The dams on the Snake were constructed in the 60's and 70's. Shortly thereafter, the salmon and steelhead fishing went to shit in Idaho....I suppose its all just a coincidence huh?

Del, you're wrong about the Columbia, the number one problem is the dams, all the experts agree and its intuitively obvious, even to a casual observer, that the dams are the problem.

As far as there not being enough adults to spawn, that still doesnt have anything to do with the piss-poor smolt return to the ocean. You could release millions upons millions more smolt, but the net gain would be meaningless when 99-100 percent are chopped up in turbines, killed by nitrogen saturated water in the dam outflows, eaten by walleye and smallmouth, etc. etc. etc. all problems associated with dams.

I talked to the hatchery manager at Dworsak Fish Hatchery in Idaho last year about the problems with smolt getting to the ocean. Like he said, "its pretty hard for a smolt to migrate through 8 dams, multiple turbines, especially when the reservoirs and army corp are holding water behind all the dams." He went on to further state that the previous years smolt suffered a mortality rate of basically 100 percent, he said, "we would have had about as much success just hauling those smolt to the city dump." Thats the Indians fault for harvesting adults?

I dont care if 10 million fish make it to Idaho and spawn, if the smolt from that huge amount of spawning fish dont get downstream, its meaningless, its equally as meaningless if you only have spawning habitat available for 1 million fish. We've lost a very significant portion of anadromous fish habitat.

What you're trying to do is find an easy answer in the Indian harvest, but that aint the problem. I'm suprised you havent blamed the sea lions yet.

The hatcheries are meeting the requirements for adult returns for smolt production...yet the populations continue to dwindle even with more and more hatcheries producing more and more smolt...and you still somehow think the Indians are to blame????

Del, I'm also not so sure our government screwed up by allowing the Indians to harvest fish and game. That seems like a pretty good deal...40 million acres for a guarantee of some salmon. I wish I could run into a bad deal like that.

Trust me, the Tribes, commercial fishermen, and sportfishermen will win this one, and the dams on the Snake are coming down, bank on it...the salmon and steelhead fishing will be unbelievably good once again. Maybe I'll even get a chance to fish the Selway, middle fork of the Clearwater, Lochsa, White Sands Creek, and the Brushy Fork for Steelhead one day...thats always been a dream of mine.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-10-2003 22:05: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Delw]

Buzz... Like I said in the past I agree with your dam issue to idaho to a certain extent ... but the salmon population in washington plain sucks and this is in fact due to the indians ... not no dam or anything else if there isnt a dam in a river and the salmon arenot there then what else could it be other than over harvest. I have seen this first hand....


Back to the dam issue...

I didnt know there were 200+ damns abover tricitys.. I knew there was alot but not that many....


Your right on the oxygenated waters with smolt and fish. we run into the same thing here in AZ when they fire up the turbines at apache lake.. dead fish everywhere and I mean 1000's in just a few hours...


I wouldnt blame the sea lions but I would blame those bald eagles.

Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

It ain't the sea lions that are the problems. It is the Terns on the island in the mouth of the Columbia. They just sit and eat all the smolt that are able to make it past the rest of the obstacles on the way to the ocean.

 

[Ithaca 37]

And it doesn't help anything when those smolts are sick and injured by going thru the turbines, getting barged, etc.. So, once again, you can trace the root of the problem back to the dams.

 

[HUNT2MUCH]

I have studied this issue for two decades now and just cleaned out a four drawer file cabinet full of studies, everyone that has posted are making good points, and you can find studies to back up anything you want to say, but the facts remain, we can not get back our adult fish in Idaho until we can do something about the 90% mortality rate for the smolts headed for the ocean, the Snake River dams are the number one problem, which by the way are slack water dams, any power production or any other benefits are purely coincedental to their construction, as for putting farmers out of business, HOGWASH, I recently toured the region gathering more info and most farmers pumping out of the main stem Snake will only have to extend their pumping inlets down to the natural river level, these Dams were never intended to be water storage, electrical or flood controlling structures, their only reason for existance is to make Lewiston a sea port..period!!and if you really want to get pissed just see how much it costs to run these dams and keep up with the maintanence each year , just so a hand full of individuals can ship produce and products at a subsidized rate, look at the great returns of hatchery fish the last two years, mostly because we had high water the two previous years and spilling took place over the dams on a regular basis instead of putting the smolts in the death barges, more natural river flows worked, add that to favorable ocean conditions and back come our fish, it doesn't take much more than common sense to restore Idahos anadromous fish, after all the greatest engineer of them all placed the fish in a free flowing river to ensure ther survival, but I guess were smarter than than that now days , any way get your poles up to Riggins the fish are on their way...h2m

 

[BuzzH]

Finally, someone who does a little research and actually sees the problems.

Excellent.

Hunt2much, if you hear how the fishin is in Riggins send me an email would you. My email is in my profile.

I called a buddy of mine and he said Orifino is 70 hours a fish!

I've also heard almost all the fish this year are 3 salt fish and most are between 20-35 pounds. I've fished the Little Salmon quite a bit and its a battle trying to hold a 15 pounder on 30 pound test, as I'm sure you've experienced. I wonder how a person will hold a 20+ pounder in that waterfall of a river? I'm not sure how to do it, but I'd love to try.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-11-2003 11:22: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

Just as I figured, not one of guys would step up to the plate and disconnect YOUR electricity. Just a bunch of greedy hypocrites like the rest of us. Only 5% reduction means that only one out of 20 will have to do without power. Any plans for future growth? Maybe you guys can show us how its done by investing in solar or wind for YOUR electical needs. And don't be getting no subsidies from the gummint.

So we remove the Snake dams now, what happens next? Keep going down stream like Elkgunner alluded to? Next dam only provides 5% of the electricity, and so does the next and the next.

Buzz,

If there is technology available to make the dams produce electricity more effeciently then why is it not being incorporated? How much do these improvements cost? It is appearent in your rantings that you are angry with what the dams have done in the past, and removing them today would give you some sort of pleasureable relief. It blinds you to any negative aspect that these actions might cause. Lastly, if you like the fishing in Canada better, do us all a favor and MOVE. I understand that they have better medical care for deadbeats there as well.

Ithaca,

Take your smug, square head, and all your left wing postings and shove them up your ass. Let me lay it out to you in a way that even an educated idiot can understand. Dam breaching ain't going to happen.

President Bush promised that if elected, there would be no dam breeching. His replacement in the 2008 elections, will promise no dam breeching. You can either piss your vote away on Nader, or vote for Hillary, and then pray that she wins and that she is as phucking stupid as you. Unlikely because she'll never win, and even Hillary isn't that stupid.

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-11-2003 11:41: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, study the issue, you're talking outta your ass.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-11-2003 11:26: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, You must notta read my posts to you on 5/9!

Once again (in addition to the ID FNAWS myths you spread), you have no idea what you're talking about and refuse to educate yourself on the issue, even when provided with the means.

You're wasting our time and yours until you learn what you're talking about.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul said, "Dam breaching ain't going to happen."

I'll take that bet...how much can you afford to lose Paul?

The Snake River Dams will be breached, no doubt about it. Everything I've read points to it, and there's precidence already set in the East, where dams have been removed to increase numbers of endangered Atlantic Salmon.

I dont see anything that will stand in the way of dam breaching, in my lifetime.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Ithaca,

I talked to Lance the other day, and the only part of the story I got wrong was the bird hunting excuse. The excuse they gave for spooking the rams was that they were out scouting for deer, one hour before dark, the day before sheep season openned. The part about your friends being lying POS's is right on the money.


Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-11-2003 12:31: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Wrong again, Paul. They have both stated publicly many times that they were scouting for sheep. That was the reason they were there---to check on the rams they'd been watching for a long time.

And try to remember---only one guy saw any sheep. The other was at least a mile away.

Here's an extra tidbit: The reason the F&G opened up the sheep hunt for that particular drainage is because the two FNAWS guys had proven to F&G that there was a huntable population there. The Idaho Chapter of FNAWS had been advocating a season there for at least a couple of years.

As with the salmon issue, you've been provided the means to learn the truth and you refuse to. No sense wasting my time trying to help educate you---you prefer ignorance. Good luck!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-11-2003 22:08: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[HUNT2MUCH]

BuzzH , There ain't no holdin only hookin,when they get around 35 pounders in the river, naw , there are some landed it's a blast, I have a buddy up right now, he will be back tuesday, then I'll have good info, but runs and water conditions point to a earlier season than last year..h2m

 

[JoseCuervo]

Buzz,
I have landed 38" out of the Lil' Salmon, and I have always figured you can land 1/4 in that river.

The best thing about that river, is it is accessible, and very public, so everybody can see the crowds (ie..$$$$$), and there are so few spots, F&G and USFW, and the Tribes can all harass (I mean check) the fishing.

It is not a quality experience, but it is a rare chance to catch a fish.

I am not not sure who mentioned Alaska, but I know I have been fishing there 10 times in the last 8 years. With one trip in July of this year. I know I spend a bunch of $$$ to get there. And last year I took a 7 year old and a 9 year old, and now they are hooked on Salmon fishing.

They both know how important it is to breach the damn dams...

Paul,
I don't really think anybody is going to call for breaching the Columbia dams. I just want to see the Snake dams go. I would love to see modification to the Hells Canyon dams so we could have the Weiser River loaded again.

And Idaho Power will allow a "green option", where you can pay slightly more for power, and Idaho Power will buy "green" power. So you really don't have to disconnect the power to the house. Idaho Power will deliver it to the side of your garage.

The Statesman today, had a front page article on some slimy ammendment to the Energy bill that Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) is sneaking in. It allows the Power Companies to make the rules on environmental affects of Hydro projects.

The funny thing was, the byline on the article was an East Coast paper. Salmon are becoming a national issue.

My money is on the breaching side, I bet it happens in my lifetime.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, Polls show that the majority of Idahoans are willing to pay more for electricity if it will help bring back the salmon runs.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkgunner,

Tell me more about that Idaho green energy. Is hydro green? How about nuclear? How much additional is it per K. W.? Are you participating? Guys is there a poll out to see how many Washington citizens are in favor of paying more for their electricity to help out Idaho salmon? The dams you propose to breech are in Washington are they not? You guys are quite the big time gamblers aren't you, "I bet big dollars that dam breeching will occur in my lifetime". Can I put a lien on your Estate so as to collect on my bet? Probably not worth the trouble to file for Buzz's $2.57 any way. Want to pick a date that breeching will occur by?

Paul

 

[Delw]

Reguardless of the dams going down or staying Up I do like this type of dam where they take half the river and make it a dam and the rest is regular river.. Thats a pretty cool inovation....

As far as people paying for the cost of the mantience and up keep well if they are knocked down your going to pay more...

Dams are expensive to upkeep(why I have no clue) but reguardless they still are there to generate electricity when the demand is there.. If you take them down then thats going to be all the more harder to find replacement electricity when the demand goes up... Up in that area its mainly aircondition and irrigation..

Now getting rid of the dams will get rid of alot of wetlands for migrateing and nesting waterfowl and othr animals and birds.... So there will be problems there as well.

Dont even start on the solor and windmill crap cause it wont happen.. its nice to try to think it would or even could .. but I dont think it will for a long time.... we will have to live with coal, nuclear and dams for the time being....
Delw

 

[Ithaca 37]

Del, breaching the dams doesn't mean they'll be taken down. They'll be left exactly like they are.

Paul, It sounds like you don't want our salmon runs to come back, right?

 

[Delw]

Ithaca the water has to be put through one way or another ... how would this be accomplished? I reallt like taken down half of the dam but it would also create anothe r problem.. STIPERS(no not stippers) stripers love dams like the above due to the current conditions and the warm to cold waters.... Stripers will devastate a lake in a matter of a 5+ years it has happened to lake powel on az.... Do you have any links of the dam breeching?


Delw