And Utah says, Hold my Beer!

[BuzzH]

Exactly the response I predicted. What I was wrong on is that it took as long as it did.

The truth hurts...I get it.

 

[schmalts]

The truth hurts...I get it.

Oh we know you do.

 

[seeth07]

Moderators. I smell some stink starting at post 25 leading to 36, 38, 40, 41, 42.

 

[DFS]

Moderators. I smell some stink starting at post 25 leading to 36, 38, 40, 41, 42.

View attachment 364283

Get some thicker skin.

 

[Kiwi]

Yeah, those increases are too rich for me to keep building points for my son and I.

I’ll keep my 5 general deer points (don’t think they expire) and maybe do a deer hunt if it works out.

 

[Drake4]

Moderators. I smell some stink starting at post 25 leading to 36, 38, 40, 41, 42.

View attachment 364283

 

[cgasner1]

Pretty tough to lose something you never had.

It's always been 1% of the Sportmen/women that fight the good fight, the rest make threats and think buying a license once a decade is going all out.

That hasn't changed in my lifetime so far, and won't change in the upcoming decades.

I'm switching gears, I think the average mountain biker, rock climber, camper, birdwatcher, etc. is more passionate about public lands and much more likely to support same. They're also more likely to get involved. Hunters, as a vast majority, are a selfish bunch that only care about killing something and that's about where their "advocacy" ends.

I'm going to spend my time with people that care about public lands, and right now, that isn't NR hunters and in particular those in the mid-West are some of the worst.

I don't like it, but its just a simple fact and the way it is.

Most of this is 100% agree with you. Plenty of other threads on here were I have told people if you apply for out of state hunts and look at it as anything more than a conservation donation your in for a bad time. My application would cost me 496 dollars a year the way I’m currently applying. With the draw odds following the quality of hunts and dropping I’d rather donate it somewhere else. I just may end up doing that

 

[BuzzH]

Most of this is 100% agree with you. Plenty of other threads on here were I have told people if you apply for out of state hunts and look at it as anything more than a conservation donation your in for a bad time. My application would cost me 496 dollars a year the way I’m currently applying. With the draw odds following the quality of hunts and dropping I’d rather donate it somewhere else. I just may end up doing that

Exactly, and I have applied for more tags for a lot longer than a majority that do all the belly-aching.

I never had any expectations of drawing 1% or less odds tags when I started applying all over the West, and like you, I viewed it as annual donation to something I care about. Same reason I buy raffle tickets, apply for super tags, etc., no expectation of drawing, just another annual donation.

Its just hilarious watching people that apply for 1-100+ odds tags for 15 years bitching about not drawing. Yeah, well, I applied for 43 years for Montana sheep before I drew, and I never thought I would. My odds have deteriorated in every State I apply in, Montana some of the worst. The goat area I drew was 1:18 odds in 1998, moose area probably 1:70. Multiple years I applied for up and coming sheep areas with odds 1:20 (lower rock creek, Bonner, even the breaks early on). Just because it costs more to apply and my odds suck worse than ever, doesn't lead me to the conclusion that I should tell Montana to piss off in regard to public land advocacy. That's what losers do.

I just keep applying and donating to a good cause. If I get lucky and draw, great, if I don't...meh, better than spending it at a bar, on an ATV, etc.

I get it if people don't find value in applying for certain states (I bailed on NM), but I'll never understand not supporting public lands just because you can't get the tag you want. I'll still advocate for public lands in New Mexico, but don't find value in the hunting there anymore.

 

[cgasner1]

Exactly, and I have applied for more tags for a lot longer than a majority that do all the belly-aching.

I never had any expectations of drawing 1% or less odds tags when I started applying all over the West, and like you, I viewed it as annual donation to something I care about. Same reason I buy raffle tickets, apply for super tags, etc., no expectation of drawing, just another annual donation.

Its just hilarious watching people that apply for 1-100+ odds tags for 15 years bitching about not drawing. Yeah, well, I applied for 43 years for Montana sheep before I drew, and I never thought I would. My odds have deteriorated in every State I apply in, Montana some of the worst. The goat area I drew was 1:18 odds in 1998, moose area probably 1:70. Multiple years I applied for up and coming sheep areas with odds 1:20 (lower rock creek, Bonner, even the breaks early on). Just because it costs more to apply and my odds suck worse than ever, doesn't lead me to the conclusion that I should tell Montana to piss off in regard to public land advocacy. That's what losers do.

I just keep applying and donating to a good cause. If I get lucky and draw, great, if I don't...meh, better than spending it at a bar, on an ATV, etc.

I get it if people don't find value in applying for certain states (I bailed on NM), but I'll never understand not supporting public lands just because you can't get the tag you want. I'll still advocate for public lands in New Mexico, but don't find value in the hunting there anymore.

The problem with it is I spent a little over 3k last year in applications. Doesn’t bother me one bit I’ve been applying long enough I knew what I’m getting into. But if it’s gonna keep rising at this rate at what point do I just take my ball and go home? I wanna kill a mountain goat well instead of donating it I can wait a couple years and go do that in ak. It’s a slippery slope that I feel like ends with more landowner tags being sold across the west. Especially when guys like me are ready to say it’s enough I’m out.

 

[BuzzH]

The problem with it is I spent a little over 3k last year in applications. Doesn’t bother me one bit I’ve been applying long enough I knew what I’m getting into. But if it’s gonna keep rising at this rate at what point do I just take my ball and go home? I wanna kill a mountain goat well instead of donating it I can wait a couple years and go do that in ak. It’s a slippery slope that I feel like ends with more landowner tags being sold across the west. Especially when guys like me are ready to say it’s enough I’m out.

Possibly, but I think the more tags are worth through the draw, the more likely it is to tame the sell to the highest bidder argument. Mainly because if you add in all the point fees, the required licenses, etc. you're more competitive price wise than just selling to the highest bidder. I would argue you make way more via state draws, and the money goes to the right place.

The rest, is personal choice and priorities, I don't disagree that maybe sitting out every other year in state draws and putting that cash to work on a hunt you really want isn't a bad strategy. I just don't think you have to abandon either to have your cake and eat it too.

I've thought about skipping years to be able to do some hunts I really wanted to rather than spend the money on chasing drawings. Ultimately, I can do both so that's what I'll probably do.

 

[cgasner1]

Possibly, but I think the more tags are worth through the draw, the more likely it is to tame the sell to the highest bidder argument. Mainly because if you add in all the point fees, the required licenses, etc. you're more competitive price wise than just selling to the highest bidder. I would argue you make way more via state draws, and the money goes to the right place.

The rest, is personal choice and priorities, I don't disagree that maybe sitting out every other year in state draws and putting that cash to work on a hunt you really want isn't a bad strategy. I just don't think you have to abandon either to have your cake and eat it too.

I've thought about skipping years to be able to do some hunts I really wanted to rather than spend the money on chasing drawings. Ultimately, I can do both so that's what I'll probably do.

I’ve been lucky and have been able to do both also. It just seems like it’s low hanging fruit they are taking advantage of. Most hunters will have zero impact on the environment in Utah. As you mentioned the bikers utv rafters have the larger foot print that is more where I’d try and get money. They may have just shut off a lot of mail box money if this goes thru

 

[schmalts]

I get it if people don't find value in applying for certain states (I bailed on NM), but I'll never understand not supporting public lands just because you can't get the tag you want. I'll still advocate for public lands in New Mexico, but don't find value in the hunting there anymore.

At least you said you'll never understand it. Not everyone lives to hunt like you. I've talked to a lot of people who are checking out of it and like I said, it's losing advocates big or small it just is. The more passionate someone is about something the more they will defend it and causes that go with it. I credit you with your work you've done but you are getting to be a smaller majority of a crowd. It is what it is

 

[1100RemingtonMan]

Utah can go pound sand ! If other States follow we might as well teach Kids how to Play Golf.

 

[cgasner1]

Utah can go pound sand ! If other States follow we might as well teach Kids how to Play Golf.

We have gotten into the rc cars. My boys love it

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

Utah can go pound sand ! If other States follow we might as well teach Kids how to Play Golf.

Those club memberships will be worse than the hunting permits.

 

[Matthew57]

Exactly, and I have applied for more tags for a lot longer than a majority that do all the belly-aching.

I never had any expectations of drawing 1% or less odds tags when I started applying all over the West, and like you, I viewed it as annual donation to something I care about. Same reason I buy raffle tickets, apply for super tags, etc., no expectation of drawing, just another annual donation.

Its just hilarious watching people that apply for 1-100+ odds tags for 15 years bitching about not drawing. Yeah, well, I applied for 43 years for Montana sheep before I drew, and I never thought I would. My odds have deteriorated in every State I apply in, Montana some of the worst. The goat area I drew was 1:18 odds in 1998, moose area probably 1:70. Multiple years I applied for up and coming sheep areas with odds 1:20 (lower rock creek, Bonner, even the breaks early on). Just because it costs more to apply and my odds suck worse than ever, doesn't lead me to the conclusion that I should tell Montana to piss off in regard to public land advocacy. That's what losers do.

I just keep applying and donating to a good cause. If I get lucky and draw, great, if I don't...meh, better than spending it at a bar, on an ATV, etc.

I get it if people don't find value in applying for certain states (I bailed on NM), but I'll never understand not supporting public lands just because you can't get the tag you want. I'll still advocate for public lands in New Mexico, but don't find value in the hunting there anymore.

If this fee increase were to go through and I stopped applying in Utah, my approach would be to continue doing my best to speak up for public lands there and everywhere else. Just because I wouldn’t hunt it doesn’t mean they’re worth sacrificing. I like to use HOWL to send in comments every time I see one pop up for Utah. I just feel like with those prices I could find better value elsewhere and focus on hunting around home a bit more. And on some level I’d be rewarding the legislator for fleecing me. Utah has no obligation to give me any tag whatsoever, so if that’s what the people of Utah want to charge nonresidents, more power to them. I wish them the best, I’m sure some will pay it.

 

[cgasner1]

Those club memberships will be worse than the hunting permits.

Would you continue on paying this if you only had 10-12 points? You had your beaver hunt would you spend this kinda money to have that again?

 

[BuzzH]

At least you said you'll never understand it. Not everyone lives to hunt like you. I've talked to a lot of people who are checking out of it and like I said, it's losing advocates big or small it just is. The more passionate someone is about something the more they will defend it and causes that go with it. I credit you with your work you've done but you are getting to be a smaller majority of a crowd. It is what it is

If they're checking out, that's their choice. Let them go.

I also agree that hunters are a shrinking group, in particular those that care more about wildlife and public lands beyond running a bullet or hook through an animal. But, that's always been the case.

Also why I'm more inclined to engage with hikers, mountain bikers, rock climbers, campers, hell even atv groups to advocate for public lands. They find value in public lands, more so than hunters/fisherman these days. I don't feel like the exposure to hunting and trying to increase awareness to sportsmen/women has worked at all. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

It's created angst, feelings of NR entitlements to wildlife that isn't theirs, etc. etc.

Time to move a different direction and why I've changed my position regarding NR opportunity. I used to wrongly believe if more NR hunters got to experience public land hunting we would gain advocates. That didn't work, it just turned into entitlement.

So, I switched to favoring resident opportunity because they are the most passionate about hunting AND public lands both. I think combining increased resident opportunity AND finding new public land advocates that don't even hunt and fish is the best path forward.

IMO/E, giving more and more opportunity away to NR's has been a horrible return on investment in regard to creating advocates.

Some may disagree, but the faces never change for those actually in the trenches doing the work.

 

[cgasner1]

If they're checking out, that's their choice. Let them go.

I also agree that hunters are a shrinking group, in particular those that care more about wildlife and public lands beyond running a bullet or hook through an animal. But, that's always been the case.

Also why I'm more inclined to engage with hikers, mountain bikers, rock climbers, campers, hell even atv groups to advocate for public lands. They find value in public lands, more so than hunters/fisherman these days. I don't feel like the exposure to hunting and trying to increase awareness to sportsmen/women has worked at all. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

It's created angst, feelings of NR entitlements to wildlife that isn't theirs, etc. etc.

Time to move a different direction and why I've changed my position regarding NR opportunity. I used to wrongly believe if more NR hunters got to experience public land hunting we would gain advocates. That didn't work, it just turned into entitlement.

So, I switched to favoring resident opportunity because they are the most passionate about hunting AND public lands both. I think combining increased resident opportunity AND finding new public land advocates that don't even hunt and fish is the best path forward.

IMO/E, giving more and more opportunity away to NR's has been a horrible return on investment in regard to creating advocates.

Some may disagree, but the faces never change for those actually in the trenches doing the work.

It’s hard to argue that logic especially when it doesn’t affect the % of tags. It just seems like every state but mine is throttle down trying to burn the nr

 

[hunter49]

If they're checking out, that's their choice. Let them go.

I also agree that hunters are a shrinking group, in particular those that care more about wildlife and public lands beyond running a bullet or hook through an animal. But, that's always been the case.

Also why I'm more inclined to engage with hikers, mountain bikers, rock climbers, campers, hell even atv groups to advocate for public lands. They find value in public lands, more so than hunters/fisherman these days. I don't feel like the exposure to hunting and trying to increase awareness to sportsmen/women has worked at all. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

It's created angst, feelings of NR entitlements to wildlife that isn't theirs, etc. etc.

Time to move a different direction and why I've changed my position regarding NR opportunity. I used to wrongly believe if more NR hunters got to experience public land hunting we would gain advocates. That didn't work, it just turned into entitlement.

So, I switched to favoring resident opportunity because they are the most passionate about hunting AND public lands both. I think combining increased resident opportunity AND finding new public land advocates that don't even hunt and fish is the best path forward.

IMO/E, giving more and more opportunity away to NR's has been a horrible return on investment in regard to creating advocates.

Some may disagree, but the faces never change for those actually in the trenches doing the work.

Sorry Buzz. But your wrong on this one.

If you think only people in the west are fighting for wildlife. Your sadly mistaken.