Yep, government costs money. However, does an increase in hardrock mining royalties translate directly into an increase in appropriations for the BLM and USFS? I doubt it. And yes, I agree the horse is dead.
An interesting take on Pebble
- Thread starter Dougfirtree
- Start date
Really,Last I checked I was an American and that is the USFS,BLM,etc...
diamond hitch
Well-known member
From the local perspective, the FS road beyond my house hadn't been maintained in 7 years. Last year a sale was let and the road was graded - 3 times. Commercial users pay or do maintenance on the roads we all use. As timber or mineral use diminishes and those funds / shared maintenance go away, the
maintenance will go away or a new funding source must found. Option "c" is closure of roads to diminish the obligation to the agency budget.
As a citizen you can pat yourself on the back for the taxes you paid for a wrench in the air force or a lug nut on a hummer but I'm guessing that the closure of FS local offices and non-replacement of technical staff more closely reflects the effects of reduced commercial use of "our" public land.
If you hate corporations so bad I'm guessing you don't have a business of your own. Most of us that run a business to supplement our retirement are incorporated to protect what we earned in the first career so we can survive. I am a corporation of one and its only employee. I'm guessing I'm not the only one like me. I just can't afford an army of lawyers.
maintenance will go away or a new funding source must found. Option "c" is closure of roads to diminish the obligation to the agency budget.
As a citizen you can pat yourself on the back for the taxes you paid for a wrench in the air force or a lug nut on a hummer but I'm guessing that the closure of FS local offices and non-replacement of technical staff more closely reflects the effects of reduced commercial use of "our" public land.
If you hate corporations so bad I'm guessing you don't have a business of your own. Most of us that run a business to supplement our retirement are incorporated to protect what we earned in the first career so we can survive. I am a corporation of one and its only employee. I'm guessing I'm not the only one like me. I just can't afford an army of lawyers.
Not all roads need to be there, and absent commercial use probably wouldn't be. I certainly realize this can be a double edged sword and must be taken with the appropriate context. Some roads are entirely necessary to access public lands, and some are an absolute hindrance to wildlife security and watershed health.
As to the commercial use aspect and closure of FS offices, that's what I'm asking for in numbers. I haven't been able to find them. I'd like to know what appropriations do in correlation with royalties. Maybe @BuzzH can shed some light on this.
Not sure if your last comment was directed at me or not. I certainly don't hate corporations and don't know where I've ever said I did. If it wasn't intended for me, then disregard. I actually support timber cutting, livestock grazing, and mineral extraction so long as it is done in an environmentally responsible manner that doesn't sacrifice the health of the ecosystem. These activities do have a role in the economic health of local communities just as outdoor recreation does.
I will give you a clue. Government seldom does anything right and probably squandered most of the royalties its lands generate. The point is corporations mining public land not only pay taxes they pay use fees for their activities. We as hunters largely pay no use fees for using the same land.
I have not, and I have not commented either in support or in opposition of Pebble.
It matters to me.
Dougfirtree
Well-known member
I'm no expert on mining royalties. Perhaps mines pay top dollar for the use of federal land. But, it seems like every time I do dig into royalties for extractive industries on public lands, they end up looking absurdly low. And I get that this is one of the intended functions of some public lands, but if the royalties aren't full-market value, as one would pay on privately owned land, or pay to own the private land, then it's still a subsidy. Often the fees have almost nothing to do with the value of the resource. That's ridiculous, to me. A private land owner would want to benefit in proportion to the business operating on their land.
One other point: As many have pointed out, I do pay for the use of my public lands, through my taxes. You're right that tax money is currently not paying enough to take care of the lands we have, but that's a political decision. I for one, am ready to see that change. I volunteer to look over the next federal budget and find some more of our tax dollars that would be well spent managing federal lands, instead of the crap they're going to now. I'd also volunteer to pay more taxes if they were going to land management. And I'd be in favor of several other methods of getting recreationists to pay into the pot, including a Pittman-Robertson-like tax on other outdoor equipment (backpacks, tents, mountain bikes, boats, etc). I look at our public lands as perhaps the greatest thing about our country (certainly high up on that list) and I want them well taken care of and frankly, I want more of them.
Again we are back to the fact that government seldom does anything right.. Its the governments responsibility to negotiate royalty rates.
sapperJ24
Well-known member
I hope this thread does not get locked like the previous one, but an interesting update to Pebble Mine.
"The conversations are so damning, Northern Dynasty apologized "to all Alaskans" while announcing the resignation of [Tom] Collier, who would have earned a $12 million bonus if the mine was permitted."
Direct link to recorded conversations: https://eia-global.org/reports/20200921-the-pebble-tapes
CNN (apologies for those who need it) article: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/25/politics/alaska-pebble-mine-executives-legislators/index.html
"The conversations are so damning, Northern Dynasty apologized "to all Alaskans" while announcing the resignation of [Tom] Collier, who would have earned a $12 million bonus if the mine was permitted."
Direct link to recorded conversations: https://eia-global.org/reports/20200921-the-pebble-tapes
CNN (apologies for those who need it) article: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/25/politics/alaska-pebble-mine-executives-legislators/index.html
Wind Gypsy
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Got any examples of this to reference?
I'm in the industry. Most of our projects are for customers like NextEra energy ($138 billion market cap) so I certainly don't see them claiming bankruptcy and shoveling the spoils to their buddies.
Alexa, bring up some articles on Trevor Milton and Nikola.
Cheesehead
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Army Corps denies permit for massive gold mine proposed near Bristol Bay in Alaska — The Washington Post
The Trump administration has denied a permit for Pebble Mine, which critics said would destroy the world’s largest sockeye salmon fishery
SAJ-99
Well-known member
Interesting. I guess we can never say Trump was predictable. Would like to hear @BWALKER77 take on the decision. Insert cliche here- politicians will be politicians, money talk,...
Army Corps denies permit for massive gold mine proposed near Bristol Bay in Alaska — The Washington Post
The Trump administration has denied a permit for Pebble Mine, which critics said would destroy the world’s largest sockeye salmon fisheryapple.news
"President Donald Trump faced a public pressure campaign from Republicans, including mega-donor Andy Sabin, Bass Pro Shops CEO Johnny Morris, Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson and the his eldest son, Donald Trump Jr., to block the project."
I think it is a poor decision. Not much to say other than that.
diamond hitch
Well-known member
On one of the Pebble threads a hydrologist said that he had worked on the EIS and that it would not risk the fisheries. Every project should live or die on the merits of the environmental evaluation. I find it incredibly irritating when political intervention usurps the process- either way.
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