American Prairie Reserve - Nothing new

mtmiller said:
Gila,

Here is a link that will discuss your concern. Take a look at Concern ID #2.

Knowing you will just try to pull another rabbit out of your hat, please look some of the other comments and responses.

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The BLM has authorized grazing permits and leases with bison as a class of livestock prior to the passage of FLPMA, and has issued grazing permit and leases with bison as a class of livestock after the passage of FLPMA. The BLM is currently authorizing over 30 grazing permits and leases for bison in seven states. Pages 13 and 346 of the HiLine FEIS provide additional discussion of how bison are managed. A No Bison Grazing alternative was considered and dismissed in the PRMP / FEIS because no scientifically- and/or resource-based reason was identified.
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Just helping the blind see..
 
So someone explain this hunting on AP to me in detail? Or send me a link that does?

Asking for a friend obviously.
 
JLS said:
Bullshit. It went from range with cattle to range with bison. No different than if I bought it and stocked it with Pygmy goats.
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JLS said:
Bullshit. It went from range with cattle to range with bison. No different than if I bought it and stocked it with Pygmy goats.

Edit. Know a rancher about an hour south of town who has bison. He sells about a dozen a year. Should we castigate him for taking his land out of ag production?
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Some ranchers like raising bison and cattle. However those bison are grazed for slaughter or sold to be fed out for slaughter. AP‘s bison are not being grazed for slaughter. Just because you raise bison doesn’t necessarily mean that your land is no longer agricultural land.
 
Gila said:
Some ranchers like raising bison and cattle. However those bison are grazed for slaughter or sold to be fed out for slaughter. AP‘s bison are not being grazed for slaughter. Just because you raise bison doesn’t necessarily mean that your land is no longer agricultural land.
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Check the bolding. I've never been so wrapped up with what somebody else is doing on their private property.

Though, I've probably lamented somebody subdividing their private property and developing it. Sure as chit rather have them running bison that they might not slaughter.
 
Gila said:
Some ranchers like raising bison and cattle. However those bison are grazed for slaughter or sold to be fed out for slaughter. AP‘s bison are not being grazed for slaughter. Just because you raise bison doesn’t necessarily mean that your land is no longer agricultural land.
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Who cares if they are sold or not? The BLM still collects their paltry grazing fee.

9DDA902D-D9FC-46D0-90EA-93E55AA544E1.png

Were stepping over nickels to pick up pennies in this argument.

But yeah, save the cowboy.
 
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npaden said:
Gila is showing that not only does he not have a clue on APR, but not a very good grasp on cattle production and government farm subsidies.

The land that the APR is buying up is not very productive even as rangeland. It's almost laughable how low the AUMs are on most of these properties. That's why it's getting sold off, and why big chunks of it have been already taken out of production and enrolled in CRP. I'm not 100% sure, but I would imagine that APR would leave any land that they buy that is in CRP in CRP, it really fits their model well.

It's like people think that somehow APR isn't paying property taxes and spending money running the place like the previous owners were. It really comes down to economics and it is either going to be someone like APR buying these places up or wealthy landowners who will want to 100% block all access including the landlocked public land.
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Actually you have shown how little you know about farm subsidies or CRP. How do you know how productive the land is? I tell you what, every property is different. So exactly how much of those acquired ranches had acreage in CRP if any? Do you have a clue or are you guessing? Just so you understand, if you purchase a property that has acreage enrolled in CRP, that acreage must remain in CRP until the end of the 15 year period. How much, and exactly which acres are enrolled, how long they have been enrolled, affect the sales price of that property.

You cannot graze, work the land or make hay on CRP lands. However, as I stated, in those counties that AP has acquired land, have been or are now, in emergency grazing and hay production. That means that AP is taking away grazing and hay production that was intended to produce meat. That is if they did purchase one of those properties with CRP. Property tax isn’t the same as income tax. I bought a property once that had been a sheep operation. The property had a swampy area and some wooded grassland in CRP. There was 3 years left. There were quite a few deer in the CRP so I didn’t mind.
 
Gila said:
That means that AP is taking away grazing and hay production that was intended to produce meat.
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Do you know this for a fact or does this go along with your assumptions they also got tags to hand out?
 
Gila said:
Some ranchers like raising bison and cattle. However those bison are grazed for slaughter or sold to be fed out for slaughter. AP‘s bison are not being grazed for slaughter. Just because you raise bison doesn’t necessarily mean that your land is no longer agricultural land.
Click to expand...

AP does have slaughter & they allow the take of bison in order to manage their herd. Their plans are to grow their herd to a certain number, much how any other livestock producer would grow the genetics and herd size to fit their landscape when starting out.

The genetics behind the AP herd require a slower pace of growth and replacement, so you'll see a lot of dead animals being processed, sent to schools for lunches, donated, etc. That excludes their bison harvest program that allows for over 30 bison to be removed from their herd each year, with 5 of those opportunities going to disabled veterans.

I find it a bit disingenuous to claim that CRP land is being taken out of production because AP doesn't want to use that contract for emergency haying or grazing and then claiming that they are reducing food production. One could easily argue that without AP, many young ranchers wouldn't be able to have a start because they can't afford the lease on other properties or their own families can't afford to lease at a reduced rate.
The economics of Agriculture are what they are, and AP has a role to play in both the positive and negative space but honestly, the argument that they're taking land out of production is belied by the fact that they pay twice the AUM rate on the per capita tax, and they still pay property taxes while ostensibly increasing participation in ag from younger people.

While their purchasing of land does inflate the overall appraised value, it's also silly to think that they're not getting the best deal that they can for each property they purchase.

So while AP isn't all sunshine & apple juice, it's far from the boogerman you continue to make it out to be. In fact, I'd say if we want to do a direct comparison to the billionaires who are not seriously raising cattle, you'd find a much larger economic impact from AP to local communities leading to better jobs & higher wages than through the Billionaire class that UPOM seems to cater too.
 
Gila said:
That means that AP is taking away grazing and hay production that was intended to produce meat.
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You know what they were doing with those circles? Hay production. You wouldn't believe this, but I saw it with my own eyes.
1663094084212.png

At this point I'd say you actually couldn't know less about the AP. There are people who have never heard of the AP that already know more.
 
Gila said:
Actually you have shown how little you know about farm subsidies or CRP. How do you know how productive the land is? I tell you what, every property is different. So exactly how much of those acquired ranches had acreage in CRP if any? Do you have a clue or are you guessing? Just so you understand, if you purchase a property that has acreage enrolled in CRP, that acreage must remain in CRP until the end of the 15 year period. How much, and exactly which acres are enrolled, how long they have been enrolled, affect the sales price of that property.

You cannot graze, work the land or make hay on CRP lands. However, as I stated, in those counties that AP has acquired land, have been or are now, in emergency grazing and hay production. That means that AP is taking away grazing and hay production that was intended to produce meat. That is if they did purchase one of those properties with CRP. Property tax isn’t the same as income tax. I bought a property once that had been a sheep operation. The property had a swampy area and some wooded grassland in CRP. There was 3 years left. There were quite a few deer in the CRP so I didn’t mind.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how much they have in CRP, if any, you are the one that originally brought it up. I doubt there is very much as it would have had to have been productive cropland in the past to qualify and most of the property they are buying is range land. I would guess there is some bottomland that could be in CRP though.

I actually have 4 different CRP contracts in place right now on 2 different properties that I own so I actually do know a little bit about it. There are emergency provisions that actually do allow you to hay or graze CRP land however I don't think very many people actually participate as you have to pay back your rental for the period that you choose to graze or hay it.

Generally they are 10 year contracts, there are some 15 year ones but they are not the norm. You can also elect out of the program although there are generally penalties and repayment requirements, back in the mid 2000's when commodities spiked there were quite a few farmers who elected out and went back to farming the land.

As far as the price being affected by the contract I've seen it go both ways. People who want to use the land for something else would say that a CRP contract would lower the price, people that want to leave it in conservation would generally say it would increase the price. It all depends on what the buyer of the land is looking for.
 
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Oh yeah, I forgot to address the property tax vs. income tax. You must not have looked at many rancher's income tax returns. I hate to say it but based on their tax returns you would have to assume that nearly all of these properties were operating on a not for profit basis before and after being acquired by an actual nonprofit organization.

There is a reason they are selling out, it is VERY difficult to make money raising cattle.
 
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