All Nat’l Forest Closed

[cahunter805]

I believe I know that spot (damn near exactly) that wouldn’t happen to be a very coveted muzzleloader tag would it??

Great. There goes the draw odds!

 

[Beau_G]

While I can understand both sides of this closure I still feel like the closure is some what warranted. There just aren’t enough resources available to handle another big fire if one should start up now. Also while it most likely wouldn’t be started by a Hunter there are lots of careless people that use the forests.
Hopefully CA can use this as another reason that forests need to be thinned/ control burned and logging is a positive.

The fire risk is real, and the lack of resources is a major issue. But where I get swayed against the closures is that it sets a precedent that it's OK to shut things down "just in case". This is public land we are talking about. OUR land, not the government's. The way it is managed, however, is that we only get the privilege to use it when the NFS decides it's okay.

Imagine your HOA telling you that you can't live in your home because they don't have the resources to maintain the neighborhood.

 

[Irrelevant]

OUR land, not the government's.

Who is this government you speak of? You must not be referring to the democratic republic of the United States, where the government is form of citizenry and governed by elected officials that each citizen gets to vote on. Clearly not. You must be referring to some other boogy man government.

I recommend taking control of the road in front of your house. Claim, fence it, toll it, after all it's OUR land, not the F'in County or City's.

 

[Beau_G]

Who is this government you speak of? You must not be referring to the democratic republic of the United States, where the government is form of citizenry and governed by elected officials that each citizen gets to vote on. Clearly not. You must be referring to some other boogy man government.

I recommend taking control of the road in front of your house. Claim, fence it, toll it, after all it's OUR land, not the F'in County or City's.

I get what you're saying, but the whole public land model is that it's held in trust for the public's use. It isn't owned by the federal government. But when public access is restricted, it begins to feel that the Federal Government owns the land, and we just get the privilege to use it...sometimes.

I don't mean to turn this into a political debate. I just want to go hunting!

 

[Irrelevant]

I get what you're saying, but the whole public land model is that it's held in trust for the public's use. It isn't owned by the federal government. But when public access is restricted, it begins to feel that the Federal Government owns the land, and we just get the privilege to use it...sometimes.

I don't mean to turn this into a political debate. I just want to go hunting!

No it means that our access rights are worth less than the potential property loss associated with access right now. It's triage. If it was your house about to burn you wouldn't be thinking about access to go hunting, but where you're going to live.

Triage. It's not like they enjoy shutting things down.

 

[Beau_G]

No it means that our access rights are worth less than the potential property loss associated with access right now. It's triage. If it was your house about to burn you wouldn't be thinking about access to go hunting, but where you're going to live.

Triage. It's not like they enjoy shutting things down.

I agree with your point on triage and admit that my perspective comes from living far from any wildfire risk. However, you have to acknowledge that the houses in most of these closed areas aren't "about to burn". As an example, there aren't any active wildfires in Los Padres NF, yet the whole forest is closed. That's my hang up, the "just in case" closures.

 

[Irrelevant]

I agree with your point on triage and admit that my perspective comes from living far from any wildfire risk. However, you have to acknowledge that the houses in most of these closed areas aren't "about to burn". As an example, there aren't any active wildfires in Los Padres NF, yet the whole forest is closed. That's my hang up, the "just in case" closures.

Sure, but is that indicative of forest conditions or luck of the draw on ignition events?

 

[cahunter805]

The fire risk is real, and the lack of resources is a major issue. But where I get swayed against the closures is that it sets a precedent that it's OK to shut things down "just in case". This is public land we are talking about. OUR land, not the government's. The way it is managed, however, is that we only get the privilege to use it when the NFS decides it's okay.

Imagine your HOA telling you that you can't live in your home because they don't have the resources to maintain the neighborhood.

Are you out in OUR public lands clearing trails, fixing roads, fixing fences? Or are the government employees doing it? Yes we as the public do own these lands together but we don’t manage or maintain them. I don’t like the closures at all and think they are absolutely ridiculous BTW. Also regarding the Los Padres and the other NF being closed now. I feel like they did that just because if they hadn’t closed it and left it open the amount of people that would be using it would be out of control.

 

[Beau_G]

Are you out in OUR public lands clearing trails, fixing roads, fixing fences? Or are the government employees doing it? Yes we as the public do own these lands together but we don’t manage or maintain them. I don’t like the closures at all and think they are absolutely ridiculous BTW. Also regarding the Los Padres and the other NF being closed now. I feel like they did that just because if they hadn’t closed it and left it open the amount of people that would be using it would be out of control.

Sure, but where do you think the money comes from to pay those government employees?

I don't want to make this a political debate. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the NF will reopen on 9/17 so I can get out for my annual A Zone backpack hunt, hike my ass off, and get skunked like usual.

 

[cahunter805]

Sure, but where do you think the money comes from to pay those government employees?

I don't want to make this a political debate. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the NF will reopen on 9/17 so I can get out for my annual A Zone backpack hunt, hike my ass off, and get skunked like usual.

I sure hope you are right about reopening on the 17th but I have a suspicion an extension might occur just like last year. On the positive side there should be more mature bucks next year!

 

[Steve Anderson]

Can we keep Californians out of National forest land in Montana

 

[Hunting Wife]

There have periodically been widespread public land closures in nearly all western states due to fire danger at some point. I distinctly remember forest closures during hunting season growing up in Oregon some 30 years ago. Public land has been closed during some early hunting seasons in Montana since I’ve lived here due to fire danger. The implication that this is either new or somehow unprecedented seems exaggerated to me.

As I posted in an earlier fire thread…when you have record levels of outdoor recreationalists, many of whom are ridiculously naive, coupled with a 20% shortage in fire personnel and explosive growth of WUI across the west due to population growth and urban sprawl, it’s a perfect storm for unprecedented losses of property and human life. Closures do not come lightly. There are plans in place and decision matrices that inform these processes, most of which were in all likelihood available for public comment at the time they were established. For there to be closures at this scale, it means the situation is catastrophically bad.

All fire qualified staff in my agency have been pulled for 2,3, some up to 4 and 5 fire details so far this summer because there aren’t enough fire staff nationally to meet the current need. These are not professional fire staff…they are biologists, maintenance workers, biotechs, managers, law enforcement officers, realty specialists, admin people…anyone who is physically and medically capable of fire duty. One of my colleagues (again someone who volunteered and is not full time fire staff) is now entering her second month in the hospital after a burn over. Sorry to be blunt, but my colleagues, my friends, and my family are the ones getting called to deal with the chaos, so I feel pretty strongly about this. It’s easy to sit and bitch about not being able to camp and hunt when it’s not your ass on the line when the shit hits the fan. But sure, lazy government employees have no skin in the game and like to close stuff, just because.

If it takes some temporary closures to alleviate the pressure being placed on fire resources, then close it. In case some haven’t noticed, entire towns have burnt over the past two summers. If closures keep that from happening again even once, at the expense of a few weeks of recreation, seems worth it.

And once again, if anyone wants to get qualified and go to work or volunteer, they could use the help.

 

[MarvB]

Great. There goes the draw odds!

Nothing to worry about here lol, I showed up late to the dance when I was in Cali…I’ll probably pass into the afterlife still two less than max points for elk and antelope

 

[Runnin_Chupacabra]

Sounds like being smart with limited resources if you ask me.

Yes

 

[rke]

The fire risk is real, and the lack of resources is a major issue. But where I get swayed against the closures is that it sets a precedent that it's OK to shut things down "just in case". This is public land we are talking about. OUR land, not the government's. The way it is managed, however, is that we only get the privilege to use it when the NFS decides it's okay.

Imagine your HOA telling you that you can't live in your home because they don't have the resources to maintain the neighborhood.

I’m in CA and have 2 boys (13 &15) that lost their deer seasons last year to closures in areas not on fire and are now in risk of losing this season. My oldest was even lucky enough to draw a specialty youth tag that he has been stoked (no pun intended) about since drawing. Even with that, the hardest part of the closure is that it’s fueled by the poor management of the forests. And if we spent this $18billion budget surplus (they keep campaigning on) to secure the resources we are apparently lacking, forests might not get closed.

If I could find employment enough to support my family of 7, we would be long gone! But for now, this is where we call home.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Who is this government you speak of? You must not be referring to the democratic republic of the United States, where the government is form of citizenry and governed by elected officials that each citizen gets to vote on. Clearly not. You must be referring to some other boogy man government.

I recommend taking control of the road in front of your house. Claim, fence it, toll it, after all it's OUR land, not the F'in County or City's.

I get what you're saying, but the people making these decisions were appointed not elected. Some could argue there is an entrenched, unelected boogey man government that runs major Federal agencies.

 

[Irrelevant]

I get what you're saying, but the people making these decisions were appointed not elected. Some could argue there is an entrenched, unelected boogey man government that runs major Federal agencies.

But it's simply not true. There is no bad guy- other than us.

They may not be elected but every administration appoints a new one. All of those entrenched managers are the same you see in the grocery store and at the little league tournament...

Quit demonizing Americans that you simply don't agree with.

 

[TheNorthStar]

Who is this government you speak of? You must not be referring to the democratic republic of the United States, where the government is form of citizenry and governed by elected officials that each citizen gets to vote on. Clearly not. You must be referring to some other boogy man government.

I recommend taking control of the road in front of your house. Claim, fence it, toll it, after all it's OUR land, not the F'in County or City's.

*Constitutional Federal Republic. Let's not confuse the place with North Korea.

 

[cahunter805]

I’m in CA and have 2 boys (13 &15) that lost their deer seasons last year to closures in areas not on fire and are now in risk of losing this season. My oldest was even lucky enough to draw a specialty youth tag that he has been stoked (no pun intended) about since drawing. Even with that, the hardest part of the closure is that it’s fueled by the poor management of the forests. And if we spent this $18billion budget surplus (they keep campaigning on) to secure the resources we are apparently lacking, forests might not get closed.

If I could find employment enough to support my family of 7, we would be long gone! But for now, this is where we call home.

What tags do you boys have? What youth hunt?

 

[BucksnDucks]

But it's simply not true. There is no bad guy- other than us.

They may not be elected but every administration appoints a new one. All of those entrenched managers are the same you see in the grocery store and at the little league tournament...

Quit demonizing Americans that you simply don't agree with.

It is not a personal attack or "demonizing" to criticize a government agency for a poor decision or management.
Do you know anyone that works for the USFS? I do, and when talking with them they are very critical of upper management. It seems very common for the "entrenched managers" to be far more concerned with either their own career or with the politics in DC than actually managing a public forest.
This isn't name calling, it is calling out public employees in their job that lacks real accountability. If you think the track record of the USFS is beyond criticism you may not have been paying attention the last few years. If we disagree with this particular decision that's one thing but it is disingenuous to assert that because we question a decision we are "demonizing" anyone. Holy smokes, since when is questioning a decision by USFS, game agencies, BLM etc demonizing?
To the point of the neighbors in the grocery store, this is simply not true and part of the problem. If left up to the local regional managers we would not have a blanket closure of all the forests. Major decisions are coming from DC or state capital not local managers with a vested interest in "their" forest or community.