Afghanistan
- Thread starter EKYHunter
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KB_
Well-known member
@Jess
You got back lash cause your choice of comparing 20 years of Afghanistan war fighting to a bunch of dummies is reasonably offensive to people that went to Afghanistan. That was a poor choice. I understand where you come from, im in the same position as many. All of us are going to process this differently and many of us are upset with how it was handled at the end.
I remain open minded cause this is a sensitive situation for myself and many others, but from my first glance was you came on with that shitty comment comparing that war to what happened in DC last year (intended or not) and you seem surprised that someone might be a bit ticked off? Come on man, this is obviously the wrong thread for that.
I remain sympathetic with your brother, hope he is getting the help he needs.
You got back lash cause your choice of comparing 20 years of Afghanistan war fighting to a bunch of dummies is reasonably offensive to people that went to Afghanistan. That was a poor choice. I understand where you come from, im in the same position as many. All of us are going to process this differently and many of us are upset with how it was handled at the end.
I remain open minded cause this is a sensitive situation for myself and many others, but from my first glance was you came on with that shitty comment comparing that war to what happened in DC last year (intended or not) and you seem surprised that someone might be a bit ticked off? Come on man, this is obviously the wrong thread for that.
I remain sympathetic with your brother, hope he is getting the help he needs.
G
Guest member 25165
Guest
Thanks, I appreciate that. You know what is really crazy about his situation? His love for football put him in the army. When Aaron was a junior in high school, he was hell bent on playing college football. He wanted to play at a smaller division III school in Wisconsin so his high school coach got Aaron's highlight tape together and after Aaron's junior year of high school, he met with a head coach of this particular school he wanted to play for. The coach apparently liked Aaron and his highlight tape and told him to make another tape after his senior year and that he looked forward to having my brother join this particular college team. Aaron did just that, created another tape and made an appointment with the same head coach the following year. The head coach didn't remember Aaron from the year prior, basically told Aaron that they didn't have room for him at this particular school, and that if he wanted to try to walk on, he could but basically his position was already deep with committed/scouted players. Aaron was so disappointed and so pissed off, the very next day he went to a recruiter for the Army and enlisted. I often think about how his life would be different if he just would have made that team after his senior year in high school. Of course the Army recruiter promised Aaron he could be stationed anywhere he wanted to and that the sky was the limit in terms of the jobs Aaron could be doing in the Army. Aaron ended up at Fort Benning and Fort Campbell in the motor pool...obviously not the location or job he had in mind.
RobertD
Well-known member
I have no military experience, know little of foreign affairs, and I don't pretend to know enough about any of it to offer much in the way of analysis or response.
I know that it's annoying to see how many people lapse into knee-jerk Biden blaming whilst, I would imagine, being unable to articulate exactly what he is specifically responsible for in this debacle. I won't say any more about that though.
What I will say is that, as many have pointed out, a nation simply cannot impose a new system of government on a culture that doesn't want that system on its own. There have been so many examples of this throughout history, even in Afghanistan itself. Will we, the West, learn this lesson now, finally?
I think historians will see some justification in our entrance into war in the region. As others have pointed out, mission creep is what hurt us. And certain interests having outsized power ($$$) over our governing bodies fueled a great deal of that, which is detestable. Dwight Eisenhower warned us of this as early as the 1950s; we did not heed his warning.
I really, really appreciate each and every soul that put their lives on the line in that place. It takes immeasurable selflessness and courage to do so. And let it not matter if you were fighting for a cause now seen as hopeless or wrong-headed. You had your fellow soldiers, sailors and Marines backs and that is what you can hang your hat on forever.
These are sad times. There are two ways, in my humble, often under-informed opinion for our nation to atone for the moral failings this war has produced:
1. We should be willing to spend as much or more caring for veterans as we did on funding the war. Veteran PTSD and suicide cases WILL rise in the wake of this, I'm sure. This has to be a priority!
2. We should open our borders and arms to refugees from Afghanistan. ESPECIALLY those who helped us along the way. We CAN do this and to not do it is cowardly and weak.
I'm not always comfortable jumping out with opinions like these, but there they are. If any vets want to message me to talk about their feelings or just talk hunting, please do, you have a friend in me.
I know that it's annoying to see how many people lapse into knee-jerk Biden blaming whilst, I would imagine, being unable to articulate exactly what he is specifically responsible for in this debacle. I won't say any more about that though.
What I will say is that, as many have pointed out, a nation simply cannot impose a new system of government on a culture that doesn't want that system on its own. There have been so many examples of this throughout history, even in Afghanistan itself. Will we, the West, learn this lesson now, finally?
I think historians will see some justification in our entrance into war in the region. As others have pointed out, mission creep is what hurt us. And certain interests having outsized power ($$$) over our governing bodies fueled a great deal of that, which is detestable. Dwight Eisenhower warned us of this as early as the 1950s; we did not heed his warning.
I really, really appreciate each and every soul that put their lives on the line in that place. It takes immeasurable selflessness and courage to do so. And let it not matter if you were fighting for a cause now seen as hopeless or wrong-headed. You had your fellow soldiers, sailors and Marines backs and that is what you can hang your hat on forever.
These are sad times. There are two ways, in my humble, often under-informed opinion for our nation to atone for the moral failings this war has produced:
1. We should be willing to spend as much or more caring for veterans as we did on funding the war. Veteran PTSD and suicide cases WILL rise in the wake of this, I'm sure. This has to be a priority!
2. We should open our borders and arms to refugees from Afghanistan. ESPECIALLY those who helped us along the way. We CAN do this and to not do it is cowardly and weak.
I'm not always comfortable jumping out with opinions like these, but there they are. If any vets want to message me to talk about their feelings or just talk hunting, please do, you have a friend in me.
RobertD
Well-known member
Can't imagine how you're feeling, but you are not an idiot. Disillusionment is hard, I'm sure in your case unspeakably so, but you aren't an idiot my man. HMU if you want to talk about it, we probably have some similar opinions from the looks of your post.
@Jess and everyone involved, including myself, lets all move on with the topic. It's one side set of topics that turn into a collectively created diversion from the main topic by response, comments, responding to comments, dogpile, etc... whirlwind.
I don't think there's a soul on Hunt Talk that doesn't empathize with your position for your brother. My thoughts and prayers are with him and all his family and friends who are involved with war that's so damn hard to get it's fangs out of many of our veterans.
I wish you and your brother the best and look forward to future posts from you here and elsewhere. We're all a top group of people (even you Jonesy
) and this subject certainly can bring out the feelers!
Afghanistan - I commented earlier about the women and the young girls who I fear the most for...
"My mother told them, 'I am poor, how can I cook for you?'" said Manizha. "(The Taliban) started beating her. My mother collapsed, and they hit her with their guns -- AK47s."
Manizha said she yelled at the fighters to stop. They paused for a moment before throwing a grenade into the next room and fleeing as the flames spread, she said. The mother of four died from the beating.
The deadly July 12 attack on Najia's home in Faryab province was a chilling preview of the threat now facing women across Afghanistan after the Taliban's takeover of the capital Kabul. CNN is using aliases for Najia and Manizha to protect their identity for safety reasons.
www.cnn.com
I don't think there's a soul on Hunt Talk that doesn't empathize with your position for your brother. My thoughts and prayers are with him and all his family and friends who are involved with war that's so damn hard to get it's fangs out of many of our veterans.
I wish you and your brother the best and look forward to future posts from you here and elsewhere. We're all a top group of people (even you Jonesy
) and this subject certainly can bring out the feelers!Afghanistan - I commented earlier about the women and the young girls who I fear the most for...
"My mother told them, 'I am poor, how can I cook for you?'" said Manizha. "(The Taliban) started beating her. My mother collapsed, and they hit her with their guns -- AK47s."
Manizha said she yelled at the fighters to stop. They paused for a moment before throwing a grenade into the next room and fleeing as the flames spread, she said. The mother of four died from the beating.
The deadly July 12 attack on Najia's home in Faryab province was a chilling preview of the threat now facing women across Afghanistan after the Taliban's takeover of the capital Kabul. CNN is using aliases for Najia and Manizha to protect their identity for safety reasons.
The Taliban knocked on her door 3 times. The fourth time, they killed her | CNN
It took days for the Taliban to seize Afghanistan and potentially erase 20 years of gains for Afghan women.
G
Guest member 25165
Guest
Sounds good. I appreciate the well wishes and I am sure my brother does too. I didn't mean to offend anyone. My posts are usually just smart a$$ trying to be funny kind of stuff, trying to get a laugh out of people on here. I agree, maybe just too close to home for me to not get into this topic without emotion. To all who have contributed, thanks for your opinions on this topic. I wish all of you vets, contractors, anyone involved the best.@Jess and everyone involved, including myself, lets all move on with the topic. It's one side set of topics that turn into a collectively created diversion from the main topic by response, comments, responding to comments, dogpile, etc... whirlwind.
I don't think there's a soul on Hunt Talk that doesn't empathize with your position for your brother. My thoughts and prayers are with him and all his family and friends who are involved with war that's so damn hard to get it's fangs out of many of our veterans.
I wish you and your brother the best and look forward to future posts from you here and elsewhere. We're all a top group of people (even you Jonesy
Afghanistan - I commented earlier about the women and the young girls who I fear the most for...
"My mother told them, 'I am poor, how can I cook for you?'" said Manizha. "(The Taliban) started beating her. My mother collapsed, and they hit her with their guns -- AK47s."
Manizha said she yelled at the fighters to stop. They paused for a moment before throwing a grenade into the next room and fleeing as the flames spread, she said. The mother of four died from the beating.
The deadly July 12 attack on Najia's home in Faryab province was a chilling preview of the threat now facing women across Afghanistan after the Taliban's takeover of the capital Kabul. CNN is using aliases for Najia and Manizha to protect their identity for safety reasons.
The Taliban knocked on her door 3 times. The fourth time, they killed her | CNN
It took days for the Taliban to seize Afghanistan and potentially erase 20 years of gains for Afghan women.
elkantlers
Well-known member
God willing I will never know.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
“You have the watches but we have the time,” is a quote from the book The Warrior Ethos by Steven Pressfield. This line is attributed to the Taliban and the current war in Afghanistan. Though the Taliban claim credit, we have seen this result many other times throughout history.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
I have debated responding to this thread, mostly because I am not sure there is much point. There is a lot of emotional connection to this tragedy and I understand the frustration and where people's opinions come from. I have the t-shirt/medals/scars, and have watched as quite a few flag covered body-bags got loaded onto aircraft. The last month or so I have been feverishly writing letters of support for Afghans I worked with to try and get them out of the country.
I am not here to tell anyone what they should think about this, but here are some of my thoughts that I have formed from my experience there and years of study of the countries history and our military activities there. (take them for whatever they are worth):
1. The Taliban is just the contemporary name for the rural religious majority that sits on the other side of the pendulum from the progressive/western embracing urban minority in AFG. it is almost comical how many times this pendulum has swung in the last 250years since those of Caucasian decent first forayed into AFG. History never repeats itself, but it usually rhymes.
2. I don't think the shedding of any more American/Afghan blood is going to make a difference. I know it is cynical, but at this stage what do we intend to gain.
3. We did accomplish something, and really the only thing we set out to, AQ's ability to project violence onto US soil was destroyed. Plain and simple. eliminating a safe haven was never really possible as we only had access to half of it. The other half is across the boarder in PAK, but still AQ was forced to completely change its organization, we killed so many operational leaders they haven't been able to replace, and they have spent the last 20 years just trying to stay alive.
4. We probably should have pulled out of AFG in 2004 or 2010, in either instance the religious rural majority would have taken back over.
5. The central AFG government plays next to zero role in the lives of the majority of Afghanis, so they don't care who is in charge. In other words, in Afghanistan, there is no Afghanistan.
6. There is a word in the Pashto language we don't have but it basically means "the people who will leave" used for the Brits, Ruskies, Americans, NATO, in contrast to the TB. If this doesn't tell you about the Afghan experience I don't know what will.
7. If we left a small contingent of pipe-hitters in AFG, the cost to protect them would be to the point where we would need thousands of troops and they would be solely focus on just trying not to get runover. There is no point. If we want to send in the goons they will need to come from over the horizon. Also, without a HUMINT network there will be no intelligence to work off of, and to have one you would need an environment you can move around in. The only reason we experience no casualties in the last year, is because we told the TB we were leaving, and they knew the best way to get us to stay would be to F with us.
Again, take it for what it's worth.
If you are really interested in understanding the place and why we ended up where we did, here are some books I would recommend:
Ghost Wars, Steven Coll
Directorate S, Steven Coll
Game Without Rules, Tamim Ansary
Taliban, Ahmad Rashid
Decent into Chaos, Ahmad Rashid
Hunting in The Shadows, Seth Jones
Read all of the contemporary accounts of combat there you want, they are great stories/history, but you won't learn anything about the strategy or larger dynamics that influenced the outcome. Also, don't take any of this as an endorsement of the strategic decisions our political and Sr military leaders made.
I am not here to tell anyone what they should think about this, but here are some of my thoughts that I have formed from my experience there and years of study of the countries history and our military activities there. (take them for whatever they are worth):
1. The Taliban is just the contemporary name for the rural religious majority that sits on the other side of the pendulum from the progressive/western embracing urban minority in AFG. it is almost comical how many times this pendulum has swung in the last 250years since those of Caucasian decent first forayed into AFG. History never repeats itself, but it usually rhymes.
2. I don't think the shedding of any more American/Afghan blood is going to make a difference. I know it is cynical, but at this stage what do we intend to gain.
3. We did accomplish something, and really the only thing we set out to, AQ's ability to project violence onto US soil was destroyed. Plain and simple. eliminating a safe haven was never really possible as we only had access to half of it. The other half is across the boarder in PAK, but still AQ was forced to completely change its organization, we killed so many operational leaders they haven't been able to replace, and they have spent the last 20 years just trying to stay alive.
4. We probably should have pulled out of AFG in 2004 or 2010, in either instance the religious rural majority would have taken back over.
5. The central AFG government plays next to zero role in the lives of the majority of Afghanis, so they don't care who is in charge. In other words, in Afghanistan, there is no Afghanistan.
6. There is a word in the Pashto language we don't have but it basically means "the people who will leave" used for the Brits, Ruskies, Americans, NATO, in contrast to the TB. If this doesn't tell you about the Afghan experience I don't know what will.
7. If we left a small contingent of pipe-hitters in AFG, the cost to protect them would be to the point where we would need thousands of troops and they would be solely focus on just trying not to get runover. There is no point. If we want to send in the goons they will need to come from over the horizon. Also, without a HUMINT network there will be no intelligence to work off of, and to have one you would need an environment you can move around in. The only reason we experience no casualties in the last year, is because we told the TB we were leaving, and they knew the best way to get us to stay would be to F with us.
Again, take it for what it's worth.
If you are really interested in understanding the place and why we ended up where we did, here are some books I would recommend:
Ghost Wars, Steven Coll
Directorate S, Steven Coll
Game Without Rules, Tamim Ansary
Taliban, Ahmad Rashid
Decent into Chaos, Ahmad Rashid
Hunting in The Shadows, Seth Jones
Read all of the contemporary accounts of combat there you want, they are great stories/history, but you won't learn anything about the strategy or larger dynamics that influenced the outcome. Also, don't take any of this as an endorsement of the strategic decisions our political and Sr military leaders made.
Mallardsx2
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2015
- Messages
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My $.02.
We never should have been there in the first place. We should have fought the Taliban with drones and bombs. Could have saved a lot of American lives and gotten our point across.
People have been trying to conquer that $hithole for thousands of years. Nobody will ever truly control Afghanistan.
We never should have been there in the first place. We should have fought the Taliban with drones and bombs. Could have saved a lot of American lives and gotten our point across.
People have been trying to conquer that $hithole for thousands of years. Nobody will ever truly control Afghanistan.
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I am curious if others here who have served react to movies like American Sniper the way my brother did. We started to watch it and about 1/2 hour in, my brother said "sorry sis I can't do this". So I looked for a different movie that we could watch together. BTW, this didn't just happen, it happen a few years ago, but was curious if others who have served have a hard time watching these types of movies. I know after that happen my grandmother told me my grandfather would not watch a Viet Nam movie, I am forgetting the name of that move. I will look it up and come back and add it to this post
Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now
Red Fox
Well-known member
I feel like the last ten years there we were not there to win anything. It was just to make money for some politicians (both sides). You can not tie our military's hands and expect them to get anything done.
I just wish we would blow up all our equipment that is still there up. this part makes no sense to me.
I just wish we would blow up all our equipment that is still there up. this part makes no sense to me.
I have friends that don’t watch military action movies. It’s different when you’ve lived aspects of the experience. Everyone is different though. For me, I could see and look at the dead bodies on a regular basis but you never forget the smells of dead human flesh IMO. Movies and the imagery of it all doesn’t bother me personally… but again, everyone is different.
Well said and I largely agree with you. I remember having to go into other theaters in my time since leaving Afghanistan and whenever a high ranking official came by for a visit or asked what was needed my response was almost always met with a “hmmm…”
My response was almost always without question a doctoral or native level cultural expert. I wanted that above more personnel, equipment, or other nice to haves because unfortunately no one can be an expert in every AOR in a relatively short period of time.
It can’t be overstated how much of a national security issue our educational system is and that it should be treated as such. We have so many jobs that aren’t going to be able to be filled because of not having enough kids going into STEAM careers, the rising costs of higher education, and the culture of prideful ness in a level of ignorance that we seem to have towards other cultures. As much as we value our military, we also have to recognize that it’s engineers and academics designing and building better weapons.
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4ohSick
Well-known member
I have no military experience (but immense gratitude for those who have served), so take it with a grain of salt, but just trying to think through the logistics if I was trying to make the decisions, here's what I run into:
Our equipment was in the hands of the Afghan military that we'd trained to attempt to hold the country from the Taliban. Blowing up/removing our equipment would have left them defenseless entirely. No doubt, publicizing our withdrawal and doing it so suddenly didn't give much of a sense of support, which may be why they gave up ground so quickly, but wiring everything to explode when they lost would've looked even worse to them.
Red Fox
Well-known member
I am not saying before but now, what is stopping us now?
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
I think everyone responds differently, and it is based on wiring and experiences. IMO, little in Hollywood is a very good depiction of combat. When I watched Restrepo (NG Documentary by Sebastian Junger) it makes my hairs stand up....
406dn
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We have a lot of people that still need to get out of the country. If we start blowing things up...what do you think the Taliban will do?
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