A Bull Ek, A Buck Deer and a Huge Black Wolf

[jerm8352]

I recall when Montana was CWD free and yes it had wolves too Then the very first outbreak came in the cetral part of the state near a canned hunt operation. There was a rush to close them down, but they are big money and very powerful.

We have two scenarios going on at once. An ancient one where game animmals and wolves have been interacting togther in balance. In that scenario, where there are wolves you do not have CWD. The CWD cat did not get out of the bag. Sweden, Russia and Alaska are opperating with that old scenario.

Then we have a newer scenario. Prions have always been around, in the ground, undead like vampires. The canned hunt operations have created terrible situations for infection.

New bursts of infection can come from other sources. I knew hunters. many of them, who lived in non-CWD states, then hunted in CWD states, and did not follow the rules. They just came home with quarters, spinal tissue, and the head.

All it takes is one transfer.

Deer urine scents can have CWD prions in it. Another means of transfer.

Just recently plant uptake has been recognized as a source of CWD transfer.

Look at all these hay trucks driving everwhere. If an animal with CWD prions dies there, then with time the prions will be in the alfalfa which is hauled everywhere and eaten by animals in the field like deer or elk.

In our modern world the greed of canned hunt operations and a whole group of other factors have really messed up a mess even more.

But our wilderness areas still offer a safer harbor if they have wolves playing the same role they have played for eons.

I only hunt where there are wolves. I have friend of 30 years who lives and hunts in a part of Wyoming with plenty of wolves and no CWD.

He takes an elk every year, always gets it tested and it always is negative.

Whenever he takes an elk, he leaves some cuts behind, even some backstrap as a thank you for the wolves which will be there soon. to thank them for keeping the animals he hunts and feeds to his family clean and free of CWD.

Trying to argue this point with me is futile. On my side is the wisdom of the ancient natural world and study after study coming out from one university after another.

All you have is old ideas about how bad wolves are from the cattle industry. Since when have been hunter friends anyway.

Did you know that in 1905 the cattle industry used its political power to have vetennarians intentionally release sarcoptic mange in the Rocky mountains. The intent was toliterally torture to death any wolf of other small predators.

Look up "psychedelic wolves". Wolves lose up to 40% of their hair from this mange. then they need to eat more.

I have no issue cleanly killing a animals as a hunter, but what they did was literally biological warfare. Enjoy your hamburger.

It’s illegal to leave part of the backstrap behind in Wyoming. Probably the “other cuts” too depending on what they are.

 

[Gellar]

I agree predator prey relationship is valuable to a healthy herd.

I don’t agree with wolves keeping CWD at bey, but I can see your argument and think it would be an interesting study.

I agree with bacon on a cheeseburger.

I don’t really agree with blue cheese, but occasionally…

Why does it have to be American OR Pepperjack when it could be AND?

 

[PaulRevere]

Is all hell breaking loose?!

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Some pretty wild claims there. Have any links to actual research? Most of what you are spewing is certainly not backed up by any reputable research I am aware

Some pretty wild claims there. Have any links to actual research? Most of what you are spewing is certainly not backed up by any reputable research I am aware of.

To Hunting Wife.



The topic at hand, do wolves, or lions too stave off CWD in elk, deer or even moose by culling those infected early, is like “scientific pot cooking on the stove” that is just now slowly coming to boil.



Science is slow because it is so exacting and demanding.



It is easy to be a nay-sayer. How long did tobacco companies deny the danger of smoking? How long did it take to prove the obvious? Even in the midst of smokers coughing and dying of cancer at rates far higher than non smokers. Big money was denying the obvious.



The only place in the United States where studies are capable of being done are in Yellowstone. And they are being done and the results continue to point that predators like wolves and lions are and have been forever the cleansing crew for CWD.



The incubation period for any and all CWD prion based diseases is frighteningly slow. Years, many years maybe a decade or more.



That is what makes prion diseases so dangerous. Dealing with them, especially when there is no cure at all, they just spread and get worse, would, should require great patience and caution.



We do have some huge models to guide us however.



Norway killed off all it’s wolves and it is now stuck forever with CWD. Sweden protected its wolves fully, has many of them, hundreds. And has no CWD even though it’s direct neighbor does have CWD.



The global models are blatantly obvious. I am not spewing wild ideas.



Idaho has no CWD and lots of wolves, which they are planning to kill off. Oregon and Washington have no CWD and some wolves, but not like Idaho.



You are a hunting wife. You do not have to actually see an elk to know one just walked across the road when you see elk tracks.



The tracks are proof that an elk was there.



“The Tracks” that smoking led to cancer were everywhere for decades. So are the “tracks” that predators like lions and wolves stave off CWD and have done so forever.



Yale Medical School did a huge study on Lymes Disease and other diseases and concluded that the consistent factor in disease emersion and spread was the lack of predators acting as the clean up crew.



The “Scientific Pot” of information supporting this is beginning to boil over.



Being a wife, maybe even a mother, when evidence was/is mounting, not just here but all over the world, that there was a threat to your child, that was lethal with no cure, would you ignore it and expose your child to it?



That is what CWD is like.



It is a “Terminator” of deer, elk and moose. When you study the devastation it is heart wrenching. Please recall I am both a biologist and hunter.



And if it jumps to people or cattle,,,and with time that is what all infectious agents are trying to do,



Well, the author Elliott said it best, “The world does not end in a bang, it ends with a whimper”

Mountain lions prey selectively on prion-infected mule deer | Biology Letters

The possibility that predators choose prey selectively based on age or condition has been suggested but rarely tested. We examined whether mountain lions (Puma concolor) selectively prey upon mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) infected with chronic wasting ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

https://www.usgs.gov/centers/norock/science/, hundreschronic-wasting-disease?qt-science_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects

Mountain lions prey selectively on prion-infected mule deer | Biology Letters

The possibility that predators choose prey selectively based on age or condition has been suggested but rarely tested. We examined whether mountain lions (Puma concolor) selectively prey upon mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) infected with chronic wasting ...

royalsocietypublishing.org

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/science/wolves-chronic-wasting-disease.htmlhttps://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/science/wolves-chronic-wasting-disease.html

 

[Hunting Wife]

Yes, I know all about science. I’m also a biologist.. started my career almost 20 years ago now, working on wildlife diseases. Including CWD in the the Rocky Mountain region.

Quite simply, your assertions are mostly nonsensical.

If anyone is remotely interested in actual research, I’ve been posting links on this forum for the last however many years now. The search function will bring it up for you.

The only place in the United States where studies are capable of being done are in Yellowstone. And they are being done and the results continue to point that predators like wolves and lions are and have been forever the cleansing crew for CWD.

Since current studies proposing to model predator impacts on CWD haven’t even had preliminary models published yet, it seems extremely preliminary to suggest that wolves will control CWD. Plenty of experts think this is unlikely to be the case. Here’s one:


Dr. Bryan Richards, USGS CWD researcher at the National Wildlife Health Center provides an expert perspective on many of the items you touch on in this podcast…

Ep. 070: Chronic Wasting Disease | MeatEater Podcasts

Steven Rinella talks with CWD expert Bryan Richards, Doug "Buckman Juice" Duren, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater Crew.Subjects discussed: The U.S. Geological Survey's National Wildlife Health Center; bighorn sheep in Texas; hibernacula; white-nose syndrome in bats; people eating other people's...

www.themeateater.com

Idaho has no CWD and lots of wolves, which they are planning to kill off. Oregon and Washington have no CWD and some wolves, but not like Idaho.

So how do we explain the spread of CWD, quite rapidly in some areas, throughout SW Montana and portions of western Wyoming which have no shortage of wolves?

Conversely, it is not surprising Oregon and Washington haven’t identified CWD yet. They have had no positives in captive herds and are not contiguous with any endemic areas. Simple epidemiology…nothing to do with wolves, which haven’t even been present in Oregon until recently. I also notice you conveniently leave out the vast majority of CWD negative states that do not have large predators…how do we account for the lack of all these “spontaneous” CWD cases that aren’t being detected?

Many studies have found that predators prey on CWD infected animals at higher rates. Not surprising. Many studies have also found that CWD positive animals die at higher rates due to nearly all causes, including vehicle collisions, accidents, and nearly every other cause of death than healthy animals. And yet, real world data from infected populations in all kinds of predator situations so far show increasing prevalences of disease and increasing distributions. I’ve posted links to these before, I’m not going to search them up again. Most studies finding high rates of predation on CWD positive deer also acknowledge that the observed predation rates in real world scenarios are not nearly high enough to control CWD. We’ll see what the Yellowstone data say but given how CWD has moved through surrounding areas, I’m not overly confident that predators are a silver bullet to CWD.

Being a wife, maybe even a mother, when evidence was/is mounting, not just here but all over the world, that there was a threat to your child, that was lethal with no cure, would you ignore it and expose your child to it?

Being a biologist, emotional appeals don’t mean much to me. I put my faith in data, and so far it’s very thin for what you are suggesting.

 

[MTLabrador]

Yes, I know all about science. I’m also a biologist.. started my career almost 20 years ago now, working on wildlife diseases. Including CWD in the the Rocky Mountain region.

Quite simply, your assertions are mostly nonsensical.

If anyone is remotely interested in actual research, I’ve been posting links on this forum for the last however many years now. The search function will bring it up for you.


Since current studies proposing to model predator impacts on CWD haven’t even had preliminary models published yet, it seems extremely preliminary to suggest that wolves will control CWD. Plenty of experts think this is unlikely to be the case. Here’s one:


Dr. Bryan Richards, USGS CWD researcher at the National Wildlife Health Center provides an expert perspective on many of the items you touch on in this podcast…

Ep. 070: Chronic Wasting Disease | MeatEater Podcasts

Steven Rinella talks with CWD expert Bryan Richards, Doug "Buckman Juice" Duren, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater Crew.Subjects discussed: The U.S. Geological Survey's National Wildlife Health Center; bighorn sheep in Texas; hibernacula; white-nose syndrome in bats; people eating other people's...

www.themeateater.com

So how do we explain the spread of CWD, quite rapidly in some areas, throughout SW Montana and portions of western Wyoming which have no shortage of wolves?

Conversely, it is not surprising Oregon and Washington haven’t identified CWD yet. They have had no positives in captive herds and are not contiguous with any endemic areas. Simple epidemiology…nothing to do with wolves, which haven’t even been present in Oregon until recently. I also notice you conveniently leave out the vast majority of CWD negative states that do not have large predators…how do we account for the lack of all these “spontaneous” CWD cases that aren’t being detected?

Many studies have found that predators prey on CWD infected animals at higher rates. Not surprising. Many studies have also found that CWD positive animals die at higher rates due to nearly all causes, including vehicle collisions, accidents, and nearly every other cause of death than healthy animals. And yet, real world data from infected populations in all kinds of predator situations so far show increasing prevalences of disease and increasing distributions. I’ve posted links to these before, I’m not going to search them up again. Most studies finding high rates of predation on CWD positive deer also acknowledge that the observed predation rates in real world scenarios are not nearly high enough to control CWD. We’ll see what the Yellowstone data say but given how CWD has moved through surrounding areas, I’m not overly confident that predators are a silver bullet to CWD.




Being a biologist, emotional appeals don’t mean much to me. I put my faith in data, and so far it’s very thin for what you are suggesting.

 

[Sytes]

Wolves of the Rockies - proponents and petitioners of Colorado's farced re-introduction, made "factual" scientific claims wolves will cure CWD in Colorado. Least that's the baloney sold to city folk outside Metro Denver, Boulder, etc supermarkets to collect signatures. One aspect they have in common with wolves? Selecting their targeted pretty/audience...

If that's not a reflective enough lure maybe this fish juice will help get you rolling! I'll get the popcorn popping and find my Michael Jackson sunglasses.

Don’t Elevate Wolves to an Unproven Status

Below is an op-ed published in the Missoulian newspaper, in response to an article by an advocate claiming wolves have the ability to slow or [...]

www.rmef.org

 

[HandgunHunter]

Ahhh yes….more “expert” opinion from Mustangs Rule….

2-3 more posts and maybe he will get his expert book deal and TV show.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I wasn't sure the "Use Enough Gun" thread could be topped on the nonsense scale but here we are.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Yes, I know all about science. I’m also a biologist.. started my career almost 20 years ago now, working on wildlife diseases. Including CWD in the the Rocky Mountain region.

Quite simply, your assertions are mostly nonsensical.

If anyone is remotely interested in actual research, I’ve been posting links on this forum for the last however many years now. The search function will bring it up for you.


Since current studies proposing to model predator impacts on CWD haven’t even had preliminary models published yet, it seems extremely preliminary to suggest that wolves will control CWD. Plenty of experts think this is unlikely to be the case. Here’s one:


Dr. Bryan Richards, USGS CWD researcher at the National Wildlife Health Center provides an expert perspective on many of the items you touch on in this podcast…

Ep. 070: Chronic Wasting Disease | MeatEater Podcasts

Steven Rinella talks with CWD expert Bryan Richards, Doug "Buckman Juice" Duren, and Janis Putelis of the MeatEater Crew.Subjects discussed: The U.S. Geological Survey's National Wildlife Health Center; bighorn sheep in Texas; hibernacula; white-nose syndrome in bats; people eating other people's...

www.themeateater.com

So how do we explain the spread of CWD, quite rapidly in some areas, throughout SW Montana and portions of western Wyoming which have no shortage of wolves?

Conversely, it is not surprising Oregon and Washington haven’t identified CWD yet. They have had no positives in captive herds and are not contiguous with any endemic areas. Simple epidemiology…nothing to do with wolves, which haven’t even been present in Oregon until recently. I also notice you conveniently leave out the vast majority of CWD negative states that do not have large predators…how do we account for the lack of all these “spontaneous” CWD cases that aren’t being detected?

Many studies have found that predators prey on CWD infected animals at higher rates. Not surprising. Many studies have also found that CWD positive animals die at higher rates due to nearly all causes, including vehicle collisions, accidents, and nearly every other cause of death than healthy animals. And yet, real world data from infected populations in all kinds of predator situations so far show increasing prevalences of disease and increasing distributions. I’ve posted links to these before, I’m not going to search them up again. Most studies finding high rates of predation on CWD positive deer also acknowledge that the observed predation rates in real world scenarios are not nearly high enough to control CWD. We’ll see what the Yellowstone data say but given how CWD has moved through surrounding areas, I’m not overly confident that predators are a silver bullet to CWD.




Being a biologist, emotional appeals don’t mean much to me. I put my faith in data, and so far it’s very thin for what you are suggesting.

“Wolves wouldn’t be a magic cure everywhere,” Brandell said. “But in places where CWD was just starting and you have an active predator guild, they could keep it at bay and it might never get a foothold.”

Hello Hunting Wife,


I read all posts you put in, quite dedicated you are. I compliment you on that. I think however your paradyme excludes cutting edge ideas.

The scientists I am following with keen interest are like the one whose website I included below

I listened to the podcast you offered.

I thought it was something fitting for an article in Outdoor Life, not really that scientific, old good info. What we need is cutting edge. The quote above by Brandell I totally agree with.

Again;

“Wolves wouldn’t be a magic cure everywhere,” Brandell said. “But in places where CWD was just starting and you have an active predator guild, they could keep it at bay and it might never get a foothold.”

This is as far as I could ever see the role of wolves in mitigating or stopping CWD.

The problem is too big. In some places, like Idaho, they could be so valuable to that end.

I really try hard not to “have my own ideas” though it might sound that way. I follow the research, pay attention to the cutting edge scientists, and digest their studies.

I think you are serious, so much of your work is solid and offers all that can ever be done in most CWD areas. There are other areas however where wolves could be, should be, the best option.

Those places are where I will be hunting. They offer an ancient, no make that an atavistic natural bridge far above mere “Data”

Thank you for contributing to my post and your dedication to the betterment of wildlife.

MR

about

research interests I am interested in the relationships between wildlife hosts, parasites, the environment, and management practices. I study these interactions using mathematics,...

ellenebrandell.weebly.com

 

[Nambaster]

Cant there be a middle ground? I don’t want the wolf eradicated. I also don’t want it to decimate big game populations, but I want to hunt it. I am not convinced that there is a direct correlation between wolves and the spread of CWD. I can accept that there will be ebbs and booms and busts in wolf populations that will directly affect big game populations.

I want the wolf managed as a big game animal and I want to hunt it with generous opportunity. Hunters are not adequate when it comes to managing their numbers, but it sure is a privilege to pursue them. If they came off the menu here in Idaho I would certainly feel that absence.

I don’t hunt the wolf out of hatred for what it is. I hunt the wolf because it is a challenge and it’s an experience that I am grateful for. It’s an iconic species and awesome to cut tracks and find scat, and when they appear just out of range I get the same rush I do when hunting any animal.

 

[ILbowhntr]

I recall when Montana was CWD free and yes it had wolves too Then the very first outbreak came in the cetral part of the state near a canned hunt operation. There was a rush to close them down, but they are big money and very powerful.

We have two scenarios going on at once. An ancient one where game animmals and wolves have been interacting togther in balance. In that scenario, where there are wolves you do not have CWD. The CWD cat did not get out of the bag. Sweden, Russia and Alaska are opperating with that old scenario.

Then we have a newer scenario. Prions have always been around, in the ground, undead like vampires. The canned hunt operations have created terrible situations for infection.

New bursts of infection can come from other sources. I knew hunters. many of them, who lived in non-CWD states, then hunted in CWD states, and did not follow the rules. They just came home with quarters, spinal tissue, and the head.

All it takes is one transfer.

Deer urine scents can have CWD prions in it. Another means of transfer.

Just recently plant uptake has been recognized as a source of CWD transfer.

Look at all these hay trucks driving everwhere. If an animal with CWD prions dies there, then with time the prions will be in the alfalfa which is hauled everywhere and eaten by animals in the field like deer or elk.

In our modern world the greed of canned hunt operations and a whole group of other factors have really messed up a mess even more.

But our wilderness areas still offer a safer harbor if they have wolves playing the same role they have played for eons.

I only hunt where there are wolves. I have friend of 30 years who lives and hunts in a part of Wyoming with plenty of wolves and no CWD.

He takes an elk every year, always gets it tested and it always is negative.

Whenever he takes an elk, he leaves some cuts behind, even some backstrap as a thank you for the wolves which will be there soon. to thank them for keeping the animals he hunts and feeds to his family clean and free of CWD.

Trying to argue this point with me is futile. On my side is the wisdom of the ancient natural world and study after study coming out from one university after another.

All you have is old ideas about how bad wolves are from the cattle industry. Since when have been hunter friends anyway.

Did you know that in 1905 the cattle industry used its political power to have vetennarians intentionally release sarcoptic mange in the Rocky mountains. The intent was toliterally torture to death any wolf of other small predators.

Look up "psychedelic wolves". Wolves lose up to 40% of their hair from this mange. then they need to eat more.

I have no issue cleanly killing a animals as a hunter, but what they did was literally biological warfare. Enjoy your hamburger.

I am finishing up reading a book titled “Where the Elk Roam”. I highly recommend it. I learned a lot about the history, politics and conservation practices regarding elk in the western US. What I also learned is that the multitude of factors surrounding many of the issues brought up by the OP are varied and complicated…more so than most people realize. The history of our politics and policies is also hundreds of years old, and something we should learn from.

 

[LuketheDog]

“Wolves wouldn’t be a magic cure everywhere,” Brandell said. “But in places where CWD was just starting and you have an active predator guild, they could keep it at bay and it might never get a foothold.”

Hello Hunting Wife,


I read all posts you put in, quite dedicated you are. I compliment you on that. I think however your paradyme excludes cutting edge ideas.

The scientists I am following with keen interest are like the one whose website I included below

I listened to the podcast you offered.

I thought it was something fitting for an article in Outdoor Life, not really that scientific, old good info. What we need is cutting edge. The quote above by Brandell I totally agree with.

Again;

“Wolves wouldn’t be a magic cure everywhere,” Brandell said. “But in places where CWD was just starting and you have an active predator guild, they could keep it at bay and it might never get a foothold.”

This is as far as I could ever see the role of wolves in mitigating or stopping CWD.

The problem is too big. In some places, like Idaho, they could be so valuable to that end.

I really try hard not to “have my own ideas” though it might sound that way. I follow the research, pay attention to the cutting edge scientists, and digest their studies.

I think you are serious, so much of your work is solid and offers all that can ever be done in most CWD areas. There are other areas however where wolves could be, should be, the best option.

Those places are where I will be hunting. They offer an ancient, no make that an atavistic natural bridge far above mere “Data”

Thank you for contributing to my post and your dedication to the betterment of wildlife.

MR

about

research interests I am interested in the relationships between wildlife hosts, parasites, the environment, and management practices. I study these interactions using mathematics,...

ellenebrandell.weebly.com

@Hunting Wife, I think you've been validated with a pat on the head and a "run along now"

...I hope that makes your day

 

[Hunter4Life78]

View attachment 197862

I think I hear a mic drop

 

[HuntTalk Freak]

 

[Hunter4Life78]

Not being of a scientific background and after reading several articles on the CWD topic it's clear evident that prions are not an easy thing to eradicate. Depending on what you read and from time period I see that game farms seem to be a serious contributing factor. My question is that if the disease is found in fecal matter and has been found to attach itself to vegetation and seems to thrive in clay based soils ( please correct me if I say anything that isn't accurate) what would be the proper method to dispose of fecal matter in game farms? If it's piled up and left obviously a large enough pile is going to attract insects, this will attract birds to eat the insects birds then migrate how much of a factor do avians play in the spread of CWD?
I'm not saying that avians are the direct cause, it would seem plausible that scavengers ravens, crows, etc. eat an infected animal and defecate and and the digestive process doesn't kill the prions they are now on the ground infecting vegetation.

How far off base am I?