6.5 CM as a hunting cartridge... why?

[sclancy27]

I'm not comfortable trusting a TTSX or E-Tip below 2200 fps, or an LRX below 2k. At the starting velocities and BC they have, I felt I was working on the margins which isn't real confident inspiring in a practical hunting situation. I loaded and shot a lot prior to my last two mule deer hunts and at the end of the day I reached for my 7mm-08. The likelihood of 400 yard shots where I was hunting was very real and I nearly took one if it hadn't been the 2nd day of the hunt. A ridge over 1/4 mile away at dawn or dusk is a tough place to start blood trailing an animal by yourself.

I've shot both out of 270 win, max was 380 yards with Barnes and 650 yds with Hammer. The damage was more at 650 yds with the Hammer than I ever saw out of any range over 200 yds with the Barnes. They are not comparable bullets, outside of the parent material.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I've shot both out of 270 win, max was 380 yards with Barnes and 650 yds with Hammer. The damage was more at 650 yds with the Hammer than I ever saw out of any range over 200 yds with the Barnes. They are not comparable bullets, outside of the parent material.

In your experience, are the Hammer BC's accurate?

 

[sclancy27]

In your experience, are the Hammer BC's accurate?

No

They are less than advertised IME. Not an enormous amount less, but enough to matter at 500+

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

No

They are less than advertised IME. Not an enormous amount less, but enough to matter at 500+

I figured. That's why I asked. So your numbers with the Hammers are figured at the lower BC then?

 

[TheJason]

In your experience, are the Hammer BC's accurate?

I’ve shot them out to 550-600 and found them to be pretty accurate.

 

[sclancy27]

I figured. That's why I asked. So your numbers with the Hammers are figured at the lower BC then?

It can also be explained by a failure to calculate average velocity, or inaccurate velocity measurements. But it only shows up in the hammers. Basically, I load, Zero, then shoot at 500 based on advertised BC then dial to correct. Pretty easy.

You are talking range limit numbers I assume? Yes, they are reflective of the measured BC. Note that those numbers do not reflect pushing hammers all the way to the advertised velocity limit (1800 fps I believe). My personal velocity limit for mono's of any kind is 2000-2100 fps.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

It can also be explained by a failure to calculate average velocity, or inaccurate velocity measurements. But it only shows up in the hammers. Basically, I load, Zero, then shoot at 500 based on advertised BC then dial to correct. Pretty easy.

You are talking range limit numbers I assume? Yes, they are reflective of the measured BC. Note that those numbers do not reflect pushing hammers all the way to the advertised velocity limit (1800 fps I believe). My personal velocity limit for mono's of any kind is 2000-2100 fps.

Sounds like a great approach. I sure wish I had 500 at my disposal.

 

[Brad]

OK, I perused a bunch of this thread last night.

So the 6.5CM doesn't kick less than a similarly loaded 7-08, or 308?

I did see you were comparing a 140 6.5mm to a 140 7mm - apples oranges really.

To get an apples-apples comparison you need to compare a 140gr 6.5mm, 160gr 7mm, and a 180gr .308 - those have essentially equivalent BC/SD.

I've had/have the 6.5CM, 7-08Rem, and 308Win in essentially identical weight Kimber MT's and I can assure you, the 6.5/140 kicks NOTICEABLY less than the 7-08/160 or 308/180.

Oh yeah, something I haven't seen mentioned here, the 6.5CM is twisted correctly from the factory for long, slippery bullets, and its short-fat profile with blown-out taper and 30* shoulder are the place to start for inherent accuracy. The 260 or 7-08 aren't twisted ideally from the factory, nor do they have minimal taper and a 30* shoulder.

Here the 6.5CM has more SKU's on the shelves than any other round, with the 308 usually coming in second. The 7-08 is waaay down the list of factory ammo availability locally.

 

[Elkmagnet]

With the use of modern production machine work. Creedmoor and PRC family cartridges have tighter SAMMI specs than most production cartridges that were approved by SAMMI in dads childhood. A ruger american can have the tolerance of a 90s custom 700.
This forcing all manufacturers to adhered to tight spec's has translated into guns that seem easier to load for/ better with off the shelf loads and on average less lemon's due to tolerance stacking.
My best grouping rifle is a 6mm creedmoor I bought for my kids first cheep rifle

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

OK, I perused a bunch of this thread last night.

So the 6.5CM doesn't kick less than a similarly loaded 7-08, or 308?

I did see you were comparing a 140 6.5mm to a 140 7mm - apples oranges really.

To get an apples-apples comparison you need to compare a 140gr 6.5mm, 160gr 7mm, and a 180gr .308 - those have essentially equivalent BC/SD.

I've had/have the 6.5CM, 7-08Rem, and 308Win in essentially identical weight Kimber MT's and I can assure you, the 6.5/140 kicks NOTICEABLY less than the 7-08/160 or 308/180.

Oh yeah, something I haven't seen mentioned here, the 6.5CM is twisted correctly from the factory for long, slippery bullets, and its short-fat profile with blown-out taper and 30* shoulder are the place to start for inherent accuracy. The 260 or 7-08 aren't twisted ideally from the factory, nor do they have minimal taper and a 30* shoulder.

Here the 6.5CM has more SKU's on the shelves than any other round, with the 308 usually coming in second. The 7-08 is waaay down the list of factory ammo availability locally.

I don't think anyone said it doesn't kick less. But the difference is negligible until you get into the 160 class bullets with the 7-08 and .308. In other words, hand each to a relatively new shooter, all with similar bullet weights, and I doubt the difference is enough for them to notice. It's not like you're going from an '06 to a .243, in other words.

I think we've learned here that unless you're using high BC 140 class lead core bullets, the 6.5 CM loses some of its advantage as a hunting cartridge to other mid-sized cartridges. To your point of apples to apples, you cannot discount the often ignored or forgotten fact that larger bores = more velocity for the same case and powder charge. That's basically free velocity. It's what makes the .308 so relevant at practical hunting ranges, especially with monos. You can launch the same weight mono fast enough with the .308 that it can reliably expand at distances under 300 yards, where most game are shot. The 7mm-08 will launch the same weight mono 100 fps. slower, even with the same charge weight, and the 6.5 CM or .260 will launch it 100 fps. slower than that. It is something to consider.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

With the use of modern production machine work. Creedmoor and PRC family cartridges have tighter SAMMI specs than most production cartridges that were approved by SAMMI in dads childhood. A ruger american can have the tolerance of a 90s custom 700.
This forcing all manufacturers to adhered to tight spec's has translated into guns that seem easier to load for/ better with off the shelf loads and on average less lemon's due to tolerance stacking.
My best grouping rifle is a 6mm creedmoor I bought for my kids first cheep rifle

Does this still hold true if you're setting headspace yourself and resizing your own ammo? Honest question. I don't know SAMMI specs that well.

 

[TheJason]

You can launch the same weight mono fast enough with the .308 that it can reliably expand at distances under 300 yards, where most game are shot. The 7mm-08 will launch the same weight mono 100 fps. slower, even with the same charge weight, and the 6.5 CM or .260 will launch it 100 fps. slower than that. It is something to consider.

Or, you can choose a lighter mono bullet to keep the velocity up. There is no reason why a 6.5 shooting factory monos can’t be a 3-400 yard gun, easy.

 

[Brad]

When you compare the 6.5 CM to the .308 and 7mm-08 in practical hunting applications, it fails to measure up in almost any way.

You're the one that said this - it's a completely pointless comment. Like I said, I can't understand why someone can't be "for" something" without being against something else... you're the only one that seems to be struggling to see that's what you're doing.

 

[Rie Bread]

Anyone hear of the 300 savage? Who know how many deer and elk that killed

 

[sclancy27]

OK, I perused a bunch of this thread last night.

So the 6.5CM doesn't kick less than a similarly loaded 7-08, or 308?

I did see you were comparing a 140 6.5mm to a 140 7mm - apples oranges really.

To get an apples-apples comparison you need to compare a 140gr 6.5mm, 160gr 7mm, and a 180gr .308 - those have essentially equivalent BC/SD.

I've had/have the 6.5CM, 7-08Rem, and 308Win in essentially identical weight Kimber MT's and I can assure you, the 6.5/140 kicks NOTICEABLY less than the 7-08/160 or 308/180.

Oh yeah, something I haven't seen mentioned here, the 6.5CM is twisted correctly from the factory for long, slippery bullets, and its short-fat profile with blown-out taper and 30* shoulder are the place to start for inherent accuracy. The 260 or 7-08 aren't twisted ideally from the factory, nor do they have minimal taper and a 30* shoulder.

Here the 6.5CM has more SKU's on the shelves than any other round, with the 308 usually coming in second. The 7-08 is waaay down the list of factory ammo availability locally.

I have a 6.5 in that Kimber Hunter. With the gel removed it weighs 5 lbs 0.1 oz empty. The recoil is surprisingly minimal.

. It's what makes the .308 so relevant at practical hunting ranges, especially with monos. You can launch the same weight mono fast enough with the .308 that it can reliably expand at distances under 300 yards, where most game are shot. The 7mm-08 will launch the same weight mono 100 fps. slower, even with the same charge weight, and the 6.5 CM or .260 will launch it 100 fps. slower than that. It is something to consider.

there is no free velocity. More velocity and the same size bullet mean more recoil

 

[sclancy27]

You're the one that said this - it's a completely silly, pointless comment. Like I said, I can't understand why someone can't be "for" something" without being against something else... you're the only one that seems to be struggling to see that's what you're doing.

It's just incorrect. At normal hunting distances you can see those calibers as functionally equal, except the 6.5 recoils less.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

You're the one that said this - it's a completely pointless comment. Like I said, I can't understand why someone can't be "for" something" without being against something else... you're the only one that seems to be struggling to see that's what you're doing.

I think you're the one struggling here. Not everyone is a fan of everything. Not caring for something is not the same as being "against" something. I think you are trying to make this into a "us vs them" contest, and it simply isn't. I don't know how to explain that to you any more clearly. See what you want.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

It's just incorrect. At normal hunting distances you can see those calibers as functionally equal, except the 6.5 recoils less.

You seem to contradict yourself here. You say there is no free velocity, but then you say they are functionally equal but the 6.5 recoils less. I don't think we get to have it both ways.

Yes, we're picking nits, but there is a difference.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You seem to contradict yourself here. You say there is no free velocity, but then you say they are functionally equal but the 6.5 recoils less. I don't think we get to have it both ways.

Yes, we're picking nits, but there is a difference.

Compare impact velocity. Not muzzle.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Compare impact velocity. Not muzzle.

with the thought that the increased BC will make up the difference? I can see that argument, but in practice, by the time the 6.5 makes up the difference you're already below a velocity for reliable expansion, for monos at least.