44mag.

[HandgunHunter]

You can not compare just bullet weights...if statements like big and slow will do more damage than lighter or nominal weight.
You would have to include bullet nose design, expansion velocities, materials and so on.

in general a HP bullet causes more trama than a lead WFN.

using 44 magnum as an example.

a 240 grain quality hollow point going 1275 fps average will do a whole heck of a lot more damage and result in a whole lot more trama than any 300ish grain bullet going around 1000 fps.

I’m no expert....just a dedicated only handgun hunter...

 

[Woodrow F Call]

You can not compare just bullet weights...if statements like big and slow will do more damage than lighter or nominal weight.
You would have to include bullet nose design, expansion velocities, materials and so on.

in general a HP bullet causes more trama than a lead WFN.

using 44 magnum as an example.

a 240 grain quality hollow point going 1275 fps average will do a whole heck of a lot more damage and result in a whole lot more trama than any 300ish grain bullet going around 1000 fps.

I’m no expert....just a dedicated only handgun hunter...

I agree, It is more about the entire package and what you are wanting it to do. I do think heavy and light have their place.

 

[44hunter45]

This post will not say this is better than that. It is about what I always used to do vs what I do now. Also a couple of resources if you want to dig deeper.

I used 300 grain XTPs for years. Now I'm loading the H&G#503 Keith Style cast hollow point at 230 grains. They are interesting. The pictured buck fell to a 300 XTP through both lungs. Complete pass through, but only about a 1" exit. There was a lot of blood and chunks of lung on both sides of the tracks. He went about 3/4 mile. I kept pushing him and bumping him up. I finally waited it out and he was down in about 200 yards. The XTP always seems to shed it's jacket for me at around 1200fps. I found the jacket in the chest but the core had passed through. Boy, that was a long time ago. The only jacketed 300 I still hunt with is the A-Frame.

Ditto @BcGunworks
The 300 will out penetrate the 240. But that may not be what you want. Pass through is less important than trauma in the wound channel . I've lost deer to a pencil through and through WFN cast boolit with my 45 Colt. I found her the next day but the coyotes had been at her already. ( I punched my tag) A 45 hole in and a 45 hole out. I read once that perfect bullet performance would be a dramatically mushroomed bullet laying on the ground under an animal that fell dead right there. That is to say that it created a massive wound chanel, expended all itsenergy as it was breaking the hide on the far side to leave an exit wound, and then fell to the ground. That is a very theoretical bullet that rarely exits in the real world.

As others have said in this thread, bullet design is more important than the weight or the velocity. The design needs to be right not just for the weight, but the weight AND the expected range of velocity. The expected range being from the muzzle out to the maximum accurate lethal distance.

There are a lot of good articles out there on bullet selection. I really like Nathan Foster's stuff. One thing Mr. Foster does is lay out in readable form the expected performance velocities of the various bullets availble in each weapon chambering. Also how the perform on bone vs soft tissue. https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/The+Effects+Of+The+Meplat+On+Terminal+Ballistics.html

Or Veral Smith's great little book on WFN cast usage. "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets by Veral Smith (4th Edition)"
I spoke to him on the phone about a year ago. I learned more in a 20 minute call than years of experimenting.

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I'm not trying to sell books, just but pointing out there are some guys out there who have WAY more time than I have on the bullet selection puzzle. It feels like this thread has some heavy hitters contributing, too.

 

[buffybr]

... The point really being is that energy doesn't equate to killing power.... especially when the velocities are relatively low like in a handgun...

I see or hear this argument a lot. In physics, the energy of a moving object is it's velocity squared times it's weight or mass. Some people claim that it's not energy, but velocity that kills. Others argue that heavier bullets have more killing power than lighter bullets.

My reaction to the above point that "energy doesn't equate to killing power.... especially when the velocities are relatively low like in a handgun...," is to take the energy formula to the extreme with low velocity/high weight. An 80,000 pound semi-truck traveling at 60 mph or 88 fps would have 619,520,000 foot-pounds of energy, which I don't think anyone could argue that this is an insane amount of killing power!

You can not compare just bullet weights...if statements like big and slow will do more damage than lighter or nominal weight.
You would have to include bullet nose design, expansion velocities, materials and so on.

in general a HP bullet causes more trama than a lead WFN.

using 44 magnum as an example.

a 240 grain quality hollow point going 1275 fps average will do a whole heck of a lot more damage and result in a whole lot more trama than any 300ish grain bullet going around 1000 fps.

I’m no expert....just a dedicated only handgun hunter...

Yes there are a lot of factors that affect bullet performance. Just comparing weights and velocities of the .44 bullets above, a 240 grain bullet would generate 200 foot-pounds more energy that a 300 grain bullet. The shape of the bullet's nose and the composition of the bullet determine how much energy is transferred from the bullet to the animal.

HP bullets can cause more trauma than lead FN bullets because the HP bullets are designed to expand more providing a greater frontal area of the bullet which would transfer more energy from the bullet to the animal tissue.

Pure lead bullets, being softer, will expand wider and easier than hard cast bullets, but the soft lead can also deposit lead in the barrel and cannot be fired as fast as hard cast bullets. Copper jacketed bullets with exposed pure lead hollow points can be shot at top velocities and will provide maximum expansion.

 

[44hunter45]

Pure lead bullets, being softer, will expand wider and easier than hard cast bullets, but the soft lead can also deposit lead in the barrel and cannot be fired as fast as hard cast bullets. Copper jacketed bullets with exposed pure lead hollow points can be shot at top velocities and will provide maximum expansion.

I had to read this a couple of times to be sure I got what I think you are saying. It is true that hard cast performs better in the barrel and worse on the animal (they can frag) and soft cast performs worse in the barrel and better on the animal (they can lead the barrel.)

With off the shelf guns and off the shelf projectiles, your statement is true. There are many in the cast boolit community who have spent lots of hours and dollars to make their guns shoot softer cast boolits at velocities that would astound you - without leading their barrels. Lubed lead bullets have less friction than copper, so if you get the leading issues resolved they can be more efficient. That is a loading and shooting rabbit trail all in itself. I've gone down this trail and enjoyed the heck out of it. But it is not for everyone.

Some who have gone that route will never shoot "J-word" bullets in their guns. I'm not one of them. It is still too easy to go drop $25-35 on a box of jacketed bullets at Sportsman's Whorehouse and throw some handloads.

 

[Blauks]

I've hand loaded the spectrum of 44 bullets and i still enjoy shooting 180gr and 200 gr cast and jacketed bullets for plinking (7-8 grs of Power Pistol or Unique). But i would agree the 44 mag comes into it's prime for hunting loaded with the 240 gr bullets. I've loaded the classic Keith style 240 gr cast and the new fancy jacketed hollow points, both work well. My favorite hunting load is the 240 gr Hornady XTP over 22 gr of 2400 or 24 gr of H110.

 

[buffybr]

I had to read this a couple of times to be sure I got what I think you are saying. It is true that hard cast performs better in the barrel and worse on the animal (they can frag) and soft cast performs worse in the barrel and better on the animal (they can lead the barrel.)

With off the shelf guns and off the shelf projectiles, your statement is true. There are many in the cast boolit community who have spent lots of hours and dollars to make their guns shoot softer cast boolits at velocities that would astound you - without leading their barrels. Lubed lead bullets have less friction than copper, so if you get the leading issues resolved they can be more efficient. That is a loading and shooting rabbit trail all in itself. I've gone down this trail and enjoyed the heck out of it. But it is not for everyone.

Some who have gone that route will never shoot "J-word" bullets in their guns. I'm not one of them. It is still too easy to go drop $25-35 on a box of jacketed bullets at Sportsman's Whorehouse and throw some handloads.

Yes, my statement that you quoted is true as a general statement. Just like the 1000 yard benchrest community I agree that there are those in the cast bullet community that do far more tweaking of their alloys, lubes, and a host of other things that probably the majority of other bullet casters don't do. And undoubtedly they can get higher velocities and more accurate loads than the rest of us get.

I no longer formally compete in any shooting events and I cast bullets for inexpensive shooting practice and plinking. I started casting bullets in 1970 with molds for .30 caliber rifle (30-06), and .357 and .45 acp pistols. Along with those molds, I bought a Lyman 450 lub/size press. I now have 17 different molds and cast bullets for rifles, pistols, muzzleloaders, and a 12 gauge slug. Looking back in my casting records I have cast bullets 56 times with 200 to 867 bullets cast each session. I basically just cast them, lube & size them, load them and shoot them. In the many thousands of cast bullets that I have shot, I have never had any barrel leading problems.

In the beginning of your response you stated that hard cast bullets can frag or fragment in an animal. I can see that a very hard cast bullet might fragment rather than mushroom, but I have not seen that. (Although all of my cast bullets have fragmented when they came in contact with steel plates.) Also all of the 180 grain Nosler Partitions that I shot from my .30 Gibbs into elk fragmented, as did all of the other cup and core jacketed bullets that I have recovered from game animals.

I have only shot 3 cast lead bullets into big game animals, a .44 mag and a .45 acp bullet into two black bears, and a finishing shot with my .30-06 into an elk. The .44 mag bullet was 250 grains plus the gas check, and the recovered bullet was slightly mushroomed and weighed 250.3 grains. The 220 grain .45 acp bullet hit bones and the recovered weight was 196.1 grains. The recovered 180 grain .30-06 bullet weighed 179 grains without the gas check.

 

[44hunter45]

Yes, my statement that you quoted is true as a general statement. Just like the 1000 yard benchrest community I agree that there are those in the cast bullet community that do far more tweaking of their alloys, lubes, and a host of other things that probably the majority of other bullet casters don't do. And undoubtedly they can get higher velocities and more accurate loads than the rest of us get.

I no longer formally compete in any shooting events and I cast bullets for inexpensive shooting practice and plinking. I started casting bullets in 1970 with molds for .30 caliber rifle (30-06), and .357 and .45 acp pistols. Along with those molds, I bought a Lyman 450 lub/size press. I now have 17 different molds and cast bullets for rifles, pistols, muzzleloaders, and a 12 gauge slug. Looking back in my casting records I have cast bullets 56 times with 200 to 867 bullets cast each session. I basically just cast them, lube & size them, load them and shoot them. In the many thousands of cast bullets that I have shot, I have never had any barrel leading problems.

In the beginning of your response you stated that hard cast bullets can frag or fragment in an animal. I can see that a very hard cast bullet might fragment rather than mushroom, but I have not seen that. (Although all of my cast bullets have fragmented when they came in contact with steel plates.) Also all of the 180 grain Nosler Partitions that I shot from my .30 Gibbs into elk fragmented, as did all of the other cup and core jacketed bullets that I have recovered from game animals.

I have only shot 3 cast lead bullets into big game animals, a .44 mag and a .45 acp bullet into two black bears, and a finishing shot with my .30-06 into an elk. The .44 mag bullet was 250 grains plus the gas check, and the recovered bullet was slightly mushroomed and weighed 250.3 grains. The 220 grain .45 acp bullet hit bones and the recovered weight was 196.1 grains. The recovered 180 grain .30-06 bullet weighed 179 grains without the gas check.

That post was a joy to read. We are saying the same thing, but you have far more earned the right to say it. I'm preaching to someone who knows way more than me! It may be too late to avoid my hijacking this thread, but anyway....

Casting is my newest undertaking in the handloading world. Started getting interested when I got my first Blackhawk about 6 years ago. I owned revolvers and a had mild interest before that, but never got started. Being OCD I read everything I could find before I started. Having studied and deciding to jump, I of course have to go way too deep. The most important thing I've learned is that there are guys out there who have been doing this for a long time that didn't write books. I've yet to really master alloys, water dropping, BHN values, and all that. Meaning I am following someone's instructions, but have not yet learned enough to try my own things. But I am really enjoying getting there.

 

[Elkmagnet]

.

a 240 grain quality hollow point going 1275 fps average will do a whole heck of a lot more damage and result in a whole lot more trama than any 300ish grain bullet going around 1000 fps.

I’m no expert....just a dedicated only handgun hunter...

Everything is relative to the median.
On a side Deer vital a 240 HP at 1275 is going to cause a lot of vital damage. From say 0-12" of penetration.
Now what about a head on charging bear, frontal elk or the side of a buffalo vital how is the performance from 12-36" of penetration?
I see a lot more bullet failures when the bullet comes apart to much than not enough.
I would also rather track a bull with two caliber size holes in his lungs. Than chase one with a single collapsed lung and one stronger than both of mine.
I have always used 240 hard or solids.

 

[HandgunHunter]

Let’s see some pictures of handgun big game animals.....that way if a lurker on the forum rolls through looking for advise they can pick through the comments.....

 

[Elkmagnet]

Cool pics !
Do you by chance remember what bullet each was shot with for reference?
How many hits to take down?

 

[HandgunHunter]

Cool pics !
Do you by chance remember what bullet each was shot with for reference?
How many hits to take down?

240 Sierra for the 44 mag kills. 1 shot
The goats were at 130 and 150. The white tail was at 172.
The tan 357 was a customer...posted that by mistake. 158 xtp. 90-100 yards. 1 shot.

Elk was a 7-30 waters. 120 nosler ballistic tip. 150 yards. 1 would have done it but when it was standing there swaying I hit it again.

Wife and mines goat was a 6 creed xp100. 400 and 450 yards 1 shot each of memory serves correct.

Big hog was a 165 Sierra out of a 10mm 20 ish yards. Double tapped it behind the shoulder.

Cow looking hog. 100 yards in full moon light. 55 grain Barnes 223 behind the shoulder.

I’m over 30 big game animals with the Sierra 240 in a 44mag.

Over 20 with a 357 158 xtp. Some of those were with the xtp flat point.

With the 10mm....been several years since I hunted with a 10. About a dozen hogs with the 165 Sierra. Some white tail but I don’t remember how many....I was using a 45 super for deer slot then.

 

[Elkmagnet]

That's quite the resume. I'm sure you know enough to justify your opinion even if I disagree.
Before turning the OP thread into a d!@& measuring content we can agree on that.

 

[HandgunHunter]

That's quite the resume. I'm sure you know enough to justify your opinion even if I disagree.
Before turning the OP thread into a d!@& measuring content we can agree on that.

Wonderful colorful wording.


Back to facts. There are two ways you are going to kill the animal. Either knock out the central nervous system....

Or blood loss. violent upsetting bullets causing larger permanent wound cavities which cause more blood loss faster.

Hard cast or similar bullets just punch a caliber size hole and don’t cause a violent upset in the tissue.

My goal is to just put solid facts out there for people who may read through can make a solid decision.

But yes....all I do is hunt with a handgun for everything....except for a few animals with a flint lock rifle.

 

[Elkmagnet]

violent upsetting bullets causing larger permanent wound cavities which cause more blood loss faster.

They are also likely to cause a "splash" where the bullet explodes on the animal's hide and never penetrates into the vital.
The use of the 120 ballistic tip on that cow you posted is a great example of a high failure explosive bullet.(Google it)

Hard cast or similar bullets just punch a caliber size hole and don’t cause a violent upset in the tissue.

I have never seen or heard of an animal live through a .429 hole in both lungs. Its similar in size to a properly mushroomed rifle bullet.
I like to eat what I shoot and have no reason to ruin any more meat than necessary. You may like cutting out blood shot and eating lead for the "cool" factor of tissue damage but I just want the job done right and quickly.

Which do you think will have a better failures rate.

But yes....all I do is hunt with a handgun for everything....except for a few animals with a flint lock rifle.

This is an opinion based subject and yours is different than mine.
To be quite Frank I'm not impressed by your pictures in the least. You seem to think because I don't post some pictures of cows does and hogs that you are somehow the sole authority on the subject. I assure you I have kilt plenty of animal's with bullets and sticks. I feel no need to post our animal's on a yearly basis or to this thread. Its irrelevant and liken to a childish measuring contest.

 

[buffybr]

...Hard cast or similar bullets just punch a caliber size hole and don’t cause a violent upset in the tissue...

Congrats on your very successful handgun hunts. You are truly dedicated to hunting with your handguns.

Not arguing with your statement above, but the term violent is relative. A hard cast 250 grain gas checked Keith style bullet at 1300 fps from one of my .44 magnum revolvers would not violently upset animal tissue as say a 180 grain Nosler Partition at 3200 fps from my .300 Weatherby would, but the .44 bullet would certainly violently upset enough tissue that I would not want to be hit by one.

 

[HandgunHunter]

They are also likely to cause a "splash" where the bullet explodes on the animal's hide and never penetrates into the vital.
The use of the 120 ballistic tip on that cow you posted is a great example of a high failure explosive bullet.(Google it)


I have never seen or heard of an animal live through a .429 hole in both lungs. Its similar in size to a properly mushroomed rifle bullet.
I like to eat what I shoot and have no reason to ruin any more meat than necessary. You may like cutting out blood shot and eating lead for the "cool" factor of tissue damage but I just want the job done right and quickly.

Which do you think will have a better failures rate.


This is an opinion based subject and yours is different than mine.
To be quite Frank I'm not impressed by your pictures in the least. You seem to think because I don't post some pictures of cows does and hogs that you are somehow the sole authority on the subject. I assure you I have kilt plenty of animal's with bullets and sticks. I feel no need to post our animal's on a yearly basis or to this thread. Its irrelevant and liken to a childish measuring contest.

You turned to personal attacks and trying to be insulting pretty quick.


The 120 nosler BT is probably the most used bullet in the 7-08 and 7-30 waters as well as other similar calibers by HANDGUN HUNTERS. I don’t care what it does in a rifle.

All bullets have a velocity threshold in which they work.

There is a difference between opinion and experience.

If we are going to just be happy with punching through we could have stopped bullet development a long time ago and everyone could use fmj.

I have yet to see a splash on hide in the field...there are plenty of excuses used for failed to recover animals.

Unless I was going after something like Cape buffalo I’ll take the performance similar to the bullet bellow....just another kill with a Sierra 240.

 

[Elkmagnet]

The 120 nosler BT is probably the most used bullet in the 7-08 and 7-30 waters as well as other similar calibers by HANDGUN HUNTERS. I don’t care what it does in a rifle.

All bullets have a velocity threshold in which they work.

There is a difference between opinion and experience.



I have yet to see a splash on hide in the field...there are plenty of excuses used for failed to recover animals.

I have seen it.
1 ballistic tip on a mule deer, a few v max on coyotes and a power belt out of a muzzloader on a muledeer.
I haven't seen it from a 240gr hp from a 44.
There's a lot of ways to skin this cat we disagree on "the best"and that's fine they both work the majority of the time.
But acting like you are some kind of authority based on a sample of 30+and challenging others by posting a few pics and acting as if no one else's opinion matters without more pics is childish. It just shows how much you think you know.

P.s. If you can't appreciate bad humor the internet isn't for you.

 

[HandgunHunter]

I have seen it.
1 ballistic tip on a mule deer, a few v max on coyotes and a power belt out of a muzzloader on a muledeer.
I haven't seen it from a 240gr hp from a 44.
There's a lot of ways to skin this cat we disagree on "the best"and that's fine they both work the majority of the time.
But acting like you are some kind of authority based on a sample of 30+and challenging others by posting a few pics and acting as if no one else's opinion matters without more pics is childish. It just shows how much you think you know.

P.s. If you can't appreciate bad humor the internet isn't for you.

 

[Lever man]

I am picking up a new 44mag with a I am thinking 71/2 in barrel. I am only hunting deer in the east and maybe someday a black bear.
I was looking at the 180gr HP. Every thing I am reading the guys are talking 200 to 300 + gr pills. Is that much weight really needed to take bear and deer. I know shot what the gun likes and all that.
Am I wrong, would I not want a lighter bullet that's moving faster. Your still talking a 180 gr bullet. Am I off base on this.

Go with the heavier bullet. If you were using a 20" lever action maybe you could get by but with a pistol. I wouldnt