Your Public Land
- Thread starter BigHornRam
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James Riley
Banned
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- Jan 10, 2015
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Time to call:
"Mike Holmes can fix just about everything. His motto reads: "If you're going to do something, do it right the first time." And that definitely applies to his home renovation work, which is featured in this series as he and his crew rescue homeowners victimized by shoddy contractors. Holmes is a warmhearted, straight-shooting regular guy who tells it like it is, especially when it comes to messy builders and the sloppy, lazy jobs they leave behind."
BigHornRam
Well-known member
The green trees were cut into shorter lengths to get them to dry out faster to avoid beetle infestation, particularly this one.......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ips_(beetle)
Doubtful but possible logs this size dried out fast enough to avoid Ips infestation.
TheJason
Well-known member
BHR,
I am going to offer up some friendly advice, that is worth what you paid for it. First, a disclaimer that I have worked for government agencies for nearly 20 years. I don't make excuses for them, and at times I am their biggest critic. Second, a disclaimer that I don't know you, your education, work experience, political affiliation, nor do I care.
If you want to create meaningful change, here are some suggestions for you. First, stop the juvenile cryptic methodology of "presenting the problem". You just come across as someone with an axe to grind. Maybe that's all you are, maybe not? I don't know. Second, present some fact filled information based upon your experiences, phone calls made, etc. Third, provide a meaningful solution to the problem at hand.
We all know that no government agency is perfect. Some people are merely cogs in the bureaucracy, and some people get stuff done. Sometimes you have to dig to find the right person. Sometimes people can't or won't accept that what they want isn't part of the scope of work done, isn't feasible, isn't legal, etc. and the hatred for "the feds" is perpetuated.
There may be underlying facts to this that completely alter the context, and there may not. It may be pure incompetence at its finest. I don't know. If I was the person in charge of this project, I would think you were a complete dick for firing from the hip without all of the information, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental. My job requires that I find out as many facts as possible prior to moving forward. Along the way, I do my best to be respectful of everyone involved and bring integrity to the situation. Maybe in your efforts to bring things to light that you feel need addressed, you might try the same.
I am going to offer up some friendly advice, that is worth what you paid for it. First, a disclaimer that I have worked for government agencies for nearly 20 years. I don't make excuses for them, and at times I am their biggest critic. Second, a disclaimer that I don't know you, your education, work experience, political affiliation, nor do I care.
If you want to create meaningful change, here are some suggestions for you. First, stop the juvenile cryptic methodology of "presenting the problem". You just come across as someone with an axe to grind. Maybe that's all you are, maybe not? I don't know. Second, present some fact filled information based upon your experiences, phone calls made, etc. Third, provide a meaningful solution to the problem at hand.
We all know that no government agency is perfect. Some people are merely cogs in the bureaucracy, and some people get stuff done. Sometimes you have to dig to find the right person. Sometimes people can't or won't accept that what they want isn't part of the scope of work done, isn't feasible, isn't legal, etc. and the hatred for "the feds" is perpetuated.
There may be underlying facts to this that completely alter the context, and there may not. It may be pure incompetence at its finest. I don't know. If I was the person in charge of this project, I would think you were a complete dick for firing from the hip without all of the information, regardless of whether it was intentional or accidental. My job requires that I find out as many facts as possible prior to moving forward. Along the way, I do my best to be respectful of everyone involved and bring integrity to the situation. Maybe in your efforts to bring things to light that you feel need addressed, you might try the same.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Story # 3. This was a conversation yesterday with the BNF supervisor and the silviculturist that prescribed this mess. Prescription was for 100 acre treatment of lop and scatter thinning to get ahead of Pine Beetle outbreak (picture shown here earlier of outbreak area). Silviculturist is a big advocate for nutrient recycling. Work is completed and contractor has been paid for thinning work. Silviculturist stated he will defend work like this all day long and that there are many more areas on the forest that he has prescribed the same work. I said that I have passed on my photos to several forestry professionals, and they were in complete disagreement. A long and interesting discussion followed and we finally agreed to a site visit next spring. I was also going to be provided with copies of the prescription and payment records for the work.
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BigHornRam
Well-known member
Story # 4. A while later the BNF supervisor called me back. She admitted that she also was given 2 different stories. Silvicuturist #1 said the work was not completed and would be completed next year. Silviculturist #2 said that work was completed and contractor paid. She will be looking into this. She also admitted that she had not viewed my photos earlier and when she finally did, she was disturb to find out that they looked nothing like photos of the work provided to her by the people working under her supervision. She was starting to figure out that she has been mislead. I mentioned that my estimate of the treated area was that it was only 20 acres, not 100, but that would be easy enough to calculate next spring. I sure hope the billed acres of treatment jive with on the ground treated acres. Again that will be looked into next spring. I also let her know that I will be requesting information for all of silviculturist #2's prescriptions.
So that is where we are at. Any problems with this kind of work on your public lands?
So that is where we are at. Any problems with this kind of work on your public lands?
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Sounds to me like a private contractor did a crap job? Have you contacted them and told them you are upset with the work they did?
I've seen more than a couple times on logging jobs where large trees were clearly cut outside of cut boundaries. I always just figured the loggers just could not resist cutting those big trees right just sitting their on the other side of the paint, road, flagging etc. Should I have been calling the landowner (FS, state, private) and getting pissed?
I've seen more than a couple times on logging jobs where large trees were clearly cut outside of cut boundaries. I always just figured the loggers just could not resist cutting those big trees right just sitting their on the other side of the paint, road, flagging etc. Should I have been calling the landowner (FS, state, private) and getting pissed?
BigHornRam
Well-known member
At this point I don't know who the contractor was. According to FS silviculturist #2, work was inspected, approved of, and contractor paid.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
'Sounds to me like a lot of second hand information is causing speculation and more than one conclusion and story. It seems to still warrant solid information and perhaps the future opportunity / responsibility to complete the project. So far what information is consistent, among even second hand parties, is that the project has not been completed.
Confusion, contradiction, miscommunications and misunderstanding cause skewed conclusions and invalid opinions.
Confusion, contradiction, miscommunications and misunderstanding cause skewed conclusions and invalid opinions.
BuzzH
Well-known member
What district does the silviculturist you talked to work out of?
BigHornRam
Well-known member
When the Supervisor for the Bitterroot National Forest sorts out what is going on with her help, she will let me know. Someone working there is not being honest and forth right with her. Paper trail will prove who that employee is. I will keep my opinion of which employee that is to myself for now. That is where we are at.
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BigHornRam
Well-known member
I think he works out of the Hamilton office. Name is Bob. Is what is going on here acceptable to you, Buzz?
BuzzH
Well-known member
BHR,
I cant tell from the photos...you're giving a snapshot of what, maybe 1/2 acre? I cant know what the rest of the 20 acres looks like, and with your propensity of outlandish, almost unhealthy, hatred for any government agency, I don't want to, and will not speculate on one picture.
If forced into a corner to comment on the one picture you provided of the treatment area, at first blush, without looking at either the scope of work, the size of the area, the prescription, what the rest looks like...it appears to me that there was an opportunity for a commercial thin of some sort.
Again, I have no way of knowing if you cherry picked one small area that appears to have merchantable volume...or if the remaining 20 acres looks similar.
I'm all about utilizing merchantable volume, but also not a real fan of taking every tree out of the woods, "hide, guts, feathers, and all" either. Leaving enough behind to provide nutrient cycling and micro-sites for regeneration is never not a good idea.
I cant tell from the photos...you're giving a snapshot of what, maybe 1/2 acre? I cant know what the rest of the 20 acres looks like, and with your propensity of outlandish, almost unhealthy, hatred for any government agency, I don't want to, and will not speculate on one picture.
If forced into a corner to comment on the one picture you provided of the treatment area, at first blush, without looking at either the scope of work, the size of the area, the prescription, what the rest looks like...it appears to me that there was an opportunity for a commercial thin of some sort.
Again, I have no way of knowing if you cherry picked one small area that appears to have merchantable volume...or if the remaining 20 acres looks similar.
I'm all about utilizing merchantable volume, but also not a real fan of taking every tree out of the woods, "hide, guts, feathers, and all" either. Leaving enough behind to provide nutrient cycling and micro-sites for regeneration is never not a good idea.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Buzz,
You would have a difficult time walking around anywhere in the entire thinning unit. SW aspect 5600 foot elevation. Do you have any hazardous fuel concerns with this project?
What you should be concerned with is two FS employees are telling their supervisor 2 entirely different stories about the same project. I've had 4 conversations with the BNF so far, and have been given 4 different stories. Can I expect more from them? It's not that difficult.
You would have a difficult time walking around anywhere in the entire thinning unit. SW aspect 5600 foot elevation. Do you have any hazardous fuel concerns with this project?
What you should be concerned with is two FS employees are telling their supervisor 2 entirely different stories about the same project. I've had 4 conversations with the BNF so far, and have been given 4 different stories. Can I expect more from them? It's not that difficult.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
BTW Buzz, I've posted 5 pictures of the of the thinning area, not one like you are claiming. I can post more if it will help you see what a mess was made of the forest.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Meh, any thinning area will leave you with difficult walking, including a chit ton of it I've found on Plum Creek, Champion, Private, and public lands.
That doesn't concern me that much, goes with pre-commercial thinning territory.
T
tjones
Guest
What's with all the cryptic questions? What are you trying to accomplish with the "big shake-up"?
You said Julie told you she would get back to you. Why not wait until you have a complete story before painting this interweb conspiracy?
BTW I don't think there are any immediate hazardous fuel concerns.
You said Julie told you she would get back to you. Why not wait until you have a complete story before painting this interweb conspiracy?
BTW I don't think there are any immediate hazardous fuel concerns.
JoseCuervo
New member
Let me get this straight. A private company does shitty work on Public Lands, and BHR becomes outraged?
I am thinking there is a pretty simple solution.
Hey BHR, next time you are out doing your post-cut quality control, could you take pictures of all the 5 gallon buckets of hydraulic fluid, the loops and tangles of broken cable, the empty jugs of bar oil, and the empty cans of Keystone Light? Or do those things not bother you?
I am thinking there is a pretty simple solution.
Hey BHR, next time you are out doing your post-cut quality control, could you take pictures of all the 5 gallon buckets of hydraulic fluid, the loops and tangles of broken cable, the empty jugs of bar oil, and the empty cans of Keystone Light? Or do those things not bother you?
BigHornRam
Well-known member
Funny Tony. Next summer will be different story though.
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