Wyoming wilderness guide rule poll

[BuzzH]

I don't know how much this impacts non residents, I'm sure it impacts some that would venture into wilderness areas. I've found that not many residents hunt wilderness areas all that much, and if they do, its usually only a couple miles in.

Whether or not there is a wilderness guide law, it should be noted that many of the areas that outfitters hunt within designated wilderness, would be very tough for the average guy to compete with even if they had access. Most all of the best areas have designated camps in the best spots to camp where you have access to water, places to picket your horses, etc. They have multiple horses that they can rest/rotate so they have fresh horses to ride. They have wranglers, cooks, the whole nine yards. They usually run multiple hunters/guides at the same time and usually hunt those areas nearly every day of the season.

The average Resident or Non-Resident, DIY guy, even with horses, is going to have a tough time competing with that. Further, even if you chose to hunt those same areas, I'm not convinced the quality of the hunt is going to be that much better. You're going to have company, you're going to have competition, and in some cases the animal quality may not be any better, maybe even worse, than in non-wilderness areas. I wish there were a law that allowed DIY R and NR hunters to be able to have first crack at wilderness areas before outfitters are allowed to start hunting. Give the DIY guys say, the first 3 days of the season, before the outfitter assault.

I still think its crap that non residents don't have the option to go DIY in Wyoming Wilderness areas, but I think many are under the impression that the hunting is just so much better and they're missing out on quality in both terms of hunt and animals. I don't really think that's the case, at all.

Another thing that I consider, is the designation of any further wilderness in Wyoming. While I generally am very supportive of new designations, I now pause before I support any new wilderness areas here. I'm not all that jazzed about designating more wilderness that non-residents wont have access to without a guide or a friend that lives in Wyoming. I'm more inclined to be wayyyy more supportive of leaving WSA's just the way they are so that all Wyoming hunters can have access. I'm also skeptical of supporting new wilderness when it will just further subsidize the outfitting industry even more.

Its bad policy for all kinds of reasons.

 

[Kotimaki]

I can see both sides of the coin , and have been affected by both. While living in AK goats, sheep and big bears were no problem. Residency changes and I can no longer hunt the same places / game. On the other hand there are a lot of people that would get themselves in way over their heads. What bugs me about the issue is the fact that your average granola (or any of us for that matter) can camp , hike , fish , photograph, etc just not hunt....politics....

 

[westernslopehunter]

It would be interesting to see a constitutional challenge to it. I could see equal protection and right to travel issues implicated.

 

[bullbugle307]

I don't know how much this impacts non residents, I'm sure it impacts some that would venture into wilderness areas. I've found that not many residents hunt wilderness areas all that much, and if they do, its usually only a couple miles in.

Whether or not there is a wilderness guide law, it should be noted that many of the areas that outfitters hunt within designated wilderness, would be very tough for the average guy to compete with even if they had access. Most all of the best areas have designated camps in the best spots to camp where you have access to water, places to picket your horses, etc. They have multiple horses that they can rest/rotate so they have fresh horses to ride. They have wranglers, cooks, the whole nine yards. They usually run multiple hunters/guides at the same time and usually hunt those areas nearly every day of the season.

The average Resident or Non-Resident, DIY guy, even with horses, is going to have a tough time competing with that. Further, even if you chose to hunt those same areas, I'm not convinced the quality of the hunt is going to be that much better. You're going to have company, you're going to have competition, and in some cases the animal quality may not be any better, maybe even worse, than in non-wilderness areas. I wish there were a law that allowed DIY R and NR hunters to be able to have first crack at wilderness areas before outfitters are allowed to start hunting. Give the DIY guys say, the first 3 days of the season, before the outfitter assault.

I still think its crap that non residents don't have the option to go DIY in Wyoming Wilderness areas, but I think many are under the impression that the hunting is just so much better and they're missing out on quality in both terms of hunt and animals. I don't really think that's the case, at all.

Another thing that I consider, is the designation of any further wilderness in Wyoming. While I generally am very supportive of new designations, I now pause before I support any new wilderness areas here. I'm not all that jazzed about designating more wilderness that non-residents wont have access to without a guide or a friend that lives in Wyoming. I'm more inclined to be wayyyy more supportive of leaving WSA's just the way they are so that all Wyoming hunters can have access. I'm also skeptical of supporting new wilderness when it will just further subsidize the outfitting industry even more.

Its bad policy for all kinds of reasons.

Agree that WSAs generally offer the best protection, even if they weren't meant to be studied for 50 plus years. I don't want NRs locked out either, and Im afraid that new designations will come with a lot of exceptions in their enabling language that will water them down. Cherry stemmed roads and mtn bike trails etc...

 

[Dunning Kruger]

Pretty confident it has very little to do with protecting hunters in Wyoming or Alaska and a lot more to do with the outfitters being in tight with the lawmakers. Anyone can correct me if I’m wrong but the logic behind this thinking is I know a group of guys who climbed Denali DIY but I cannot hunt sheep,goats, or moose in Alaska without a guide or next of kin. This was serious stuff so much that they were roped together in case one fell in crevaces the others could pull them out.

I thought moose was okay, and its sheep goats and grizz that require guide or resident family present

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I don't know how much this impacts non residents, I'm sure it impacts some that would venture into wilderness areas. I've found that not many residents hunt wilderness areas all that much, and if they do, its usually only a couple miles in.

I agree with the rest of your statement, but I feel that this part requires a bit more conversation, and I understand you don't agree with the policy.

I think that the focus is on NR elk hunting, but it's any hunting and as you know Wilderness areas are not necessary super deep nor necessarily "wildernessy"

For instance, I live in the Denver metro, CO doesn't have a spring bear season. My closest option is WY, and the closest spot is the snowies. If I drive up from north park into WY literally the first pull off is Sixmile Gap Rd 492, that parking lot which is just off the highway is in a wilderness area. The area is only a couple of miles wide and is the only place in the range not covered in roads. There are no grizz in that part of the state.

Similarly on 287, 14, 212, 189, and a ton of places in the wind river range the Wilderness boundary is virtually on the pavement. I like hunting Wilderness Areas because typically you go from pavement and a parking lot to no roads at all and skip the miles of dirt road, which given that I drive a Sedan can be iffy. Also Wilderness areas are typically rugged mtns that are good for spring bear and high country mule deer, both hunts where it's very reasonable to venture 4-8 miles from the car on foot.

My argument is that the law limits NR a lot more than one might think. I 100% agree most NR aren't taking horses deep into the Teton's but a lot of us would like to be able to venture a couple of miles off the highway.

 

[beginnerhunter]

If you hunt with a WY resident, how close do you have to be to them during the hunt? Also, do they have to register u or anything like that? Can u still average ur points with a resident for the draw if u are NR?

From what I hear, WY is otherwise very good to the NR. So idk.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

If you hunt with a WY resident, how close do you have to be to them during the hunt? Also, do they have to register u or anything like that? Can u still average ur points with a resident for the draw if u are NR?

From what I hear, WY is otherwise very good to the NR. So idk.

You have to been together, not sure if there is distance language in the law... I don’t think the resident sitting at camp while you hunt works.

I’m not sure of the process.

Residents don’t draw with points they have an entirely separate process so no there is no average for group apps.

WY is ok to non-residents, it’s a hard thing to comment on objectively. Is the criteria price differential R v NR, is it tag allocation, is it restrictions on hunting locations, all of these vary quite a bit state to state. I think I could successfully argue a number of different. States are “the best” or “the worst” depending on my mood. I’d say WY is reasonable with a heavy resident and guide bias.

 

[geetar]

I thought moose was okay, and its sheep goats and grizz that require guide or resident family present

You’re right. My mistake. Someone else corrected me on this also.

 

[cur dog]

The numbers here show that just about everyone thinks this rule is bad. Even a lot of the residents here don't like it. So why isn't there a constant push to get it changed? This rule benefits such a small few hunters, but discriminates against the vast majority of American hunters. ( probably Wllm could come up with those percentages.) It seems like a cause the state chapters of BHA would want to tackle.

 

[BuzzH]

The numbers here show that just about everyone thinks this rule is bad. Even a lot of the residents here don't like it. So why isn't there a constant push to get it changed? This rule benefits such a small few hunters, but discriminates against the vast majority of American hunters. ( probably Wllm could come up with those percentages.) It seems like a cause the state chapters of BHA would want to tackle.

Because it would take changing legislation for one. For two, there's ways for NR's to hunt wilderness without paying for another.

It would also take a lot of political capitol, time and effort that may be better used elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

For two, there's ways for NR's to hunt wilderness without paying for another.

For instance you could go hunting Wyomingkittykiller, I’m sure it would be loads of fun.

 

[TheJason]

For instance you could go hunting Wyomingkittykiller, I’m sure it would be loads of fun.

I should line up a hunt with him. Maybe he could pay up on our bet.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I should line up a hunt with him. Maybe he could pay up on our bet.

Seems like a whiteclaw kinda guy... probably want to be very specific about what kinda beer you're expecting.

 

[cur dog]

Because it would take changing legislation for one. For two, there's ways for NR's to hunt wilderness without paying for another.

It would also take a lot of political capitol, time and effort that may be better used elsewhere.

I have a few Wyoming friends. None of which have any desire to hunt the wilderness areas.
I'm certainly not going to risk a couple thousand dollars in tag money, travel expenses and time off, on somebody I met online. Anyone who desires to head into the wilderness holding my hand seems suspicious, especially on a first date.
I'll assume that you aren't talking about illegal guiding scenarios.

 

[cur dog]

I did a couple of quick searches online. I'll throw a few numbers out there for everyone to digest. Feel free to correct me.
Non resident hunters are basically locked out of roughly 3 million acres of public land.
Nationwide, there are roughly 14,704,041 licensed hunters excluding Wyoming resident hunters. (2013)
There are roughly 133,568 licensed Wyoming hunters. (2013)
Soooo, Wyoming residents make up less than 1% of the licensed hunters in the united states.
I't's unbelievable to me, that this issue gets brushed aside and down played when it comes up.
Over 99% of us, are forbidden from hunting over 3 million acres of our public land. Freakin unbelievable!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@cur dog to be fair I think you have to look more at NR hunters in WY as it doesn’t really effect your average whitetail hunter in West Virginia, who will never step foot in the state... the law might discourage a few folks from hunting WY but I think license cost, drive time, and draw odds are the primary limiting factors. Honestly, all states have rules that restrict non residents, this rule is just pretty ham handed. They also could have just said NR aren’t allowed to hunt the units that are mostly wilderness.

Given Wyoming’s stated policy towards wolves and bears... well and for that matter the comments on this forum from a number of WY native sons, I think is safe say the denizens of that state aren’t particularly good at being subtle... or diplomatic.

 

[cur dog]

Wllm, I'll disagree with the first part of your reply. Whether or not the average whitetail hunter wants to hunt these wilderness areas isn't relevant. I'm betting if all 14,700,000 something hunters were polled, they would want that wilderness option to exist for them and their families.

The second part, I agree with.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Wllm, I'll disagree with the first part of your reply. Whether or not the average whitetail hunter wants to hunt these wilderness areas isn't relevant. I'm betting if all 14,700,000 something hunters were polled, they would want that wilderness option to exist for them and their families.

The second part, I agree with.

Yeah I agree they would, I just pointing out that if you asked them if they should all be given sheep tags they would yes they wanted those as well, but that it’s up to the states to dictate where, when, and how people hunt within their boundaries regardless of who owns the land.

Similarly I think if you polled hunters nationwide they would say that they want to be able to hunt on Sunday in Pennsylvania.

The Wyoming law is a weird and frustrating one for sure, I’m not sure if I foresee it getting resolved any time soon.

 

[PrairieHunter]

I’m be known a few WY residents who supported simply because they felt it gave them somewhere to escape the NR hunters. I question this logic, but to each their own.

It's not a difficult concept to wrap your mind around. Places where there are no roads, 4 wheelers, and few NR hunters hold more game than the areas that have roads, 4 wheelers everywhere, and NR hunters all over the place.

This is nothing. In South Dakota NR hunters can't hunt any public land (state, blm, walk in, USFS, etc) during archery season unless they buy tags before August.