Wyoming Deer research

[88man]

Then how do you explain earlier green ups since records have been kept? Conifer encroachment into alpine areas that haven't ever had conifers present? Changes in plant communities and types across elevation and latitudes across the West.

Look pal, this isn't going to turn into a what is causing climate change debate, because I don't care about that. But to deny that things aren't changing also isn't going to turn into a debate either. I see it all the time.

Buzz, in regards to early green up> I think only in modern times due to satellite imagery can the data be accurate. Who was recording spring green up in wyoming in the 1820's thru the 1870's and what were the benchmarks? Weather changes from year to year yes. Maybe all those invasives help add to an earlier green up also. Winter annual >cheatgrass
Conifer encroachment> biggest factor has to be livestock grazing. Something new to the state of wyoming since we have been recording anything in the state ha ha> Hell all the data we have is with those non native grazers so lets blame the climate and not the cows & sheep who are invasive in those areas and eating the plants selectively and changing the species diversity. Changes in plant communities> we have invasive non native plants everywhere spread by Humans maybe they just tolerate and benefit from livestock grazing. Humans selectively manage the range and forests why wouldn't there be changes in plant species after our selections and management ???
Come on man stop blaming global warming/climate change as a cause for everything. The real problem is people, we have been manipulating these habitats to get what we want from them since we set foot on them> Fur/grazing/meat/timber/killing every predator/ stocking predators. We play god and idiots that are doing the management think they know better. Your gonna have changes in the landscape with humans manipulating it from all angles to get and do what they want with it. Stop blaming the other guy with the global warming scam!

 

[Irrelevant]

For a bit of perspective, we have large mule deer populations here in eastern WA that have declined significantly. There is no CWD, there are no elk (across the ranges of the two large herds - Entiat and Okanogan), the summer range has not been developed (all FS lands), nor much of their fall range (almost all FS land). There are four significant changes that are readily observed, more recreation, less grazing/logging, development of the winter range, and climate change. Another one that I wondered about, but don't know how to quantify, is how much of the native forage has been replaced by invasive species and what effects that has on nutrition and the quality of the animals heading into winter.

88man, as a geologist I'd offer a relatively simple proxy for evaluating climate change that you should be able to see with your own eyes. Come out west on a summer vacation and find a glacier (any glacier) and either take a picture of its toe (bottom where it stops) or even drive a stake into the ground in front of it. Then make a point to come back and "check in" with that stake or that picture every couple of years, take more pictures and drive more stakes. Glaciers are not influenced by weather but by climate.

 

[walking buffalo]

Missing above is a fifth significant change, which likely should be number one on the list.
A large increase in predators!

Historical and current fire suppression needs to be included too.

We are discussing Mule Deer, which range from Mexico to Alaska, from the Dry Alpine to the Wet Coast to Badlands and Prairies. There is a bit of a climatic difference between these habitats.
To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.

 

[88man]

Missing above is a fifth significant change, which likely should be number one on the list.
A large increase in predators!

Historical and current fire suppression needs to be included too.

We are discussing Mule Deer, which range from Mexico to Alaska, from the Dry Alpine to the Wet Coast to Badlands and Prairies. There is a bit of a climatic difference between these habitats.
To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.

I gave you three reasons and yes strongly agree People predators & disease

 

[walking buffalo]

I gave you three reasons and yes strongly agree People predators & disease

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to neffa3's post above mine.

 

[SAJ-99]

Missing above is a fifth significant change, which likely should be number one on the list.
A large increase in predators!

Historical and current fire suppression needs to be included too.

We are discussing Mule Deer, which range from Mexico to Alaska, from the Dry Alpine to the Wet Coast to Badlands and Prairies. There is a bit of a climatic difference between these habitats.
To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.

No one is suggesting that a degree or two rise in global temp affects the daily habits of the mule deer, but it may increase the prevalence of certain diseases which would lead to a decline. This is certainly happening with many moose populations. It is multifactorial. Nature is complicated.

 

[walking buffalo]

No one is suggesting that a degree or two rise in global temp affects the daily habits of the mule deer, but it may increase the prevalence of certain diseases which would lead to a decline. This is certainly happening with many moose populations. It is multifactorial. Nature is complicated.

Neffa3 did, which is who my response was directed at.

What moose diseases are you referring to that are increasing due to climate change, and not due to interspecies transmission?

 

[SAJ-99]

Neffa3 did, which is who my response was directed at.

What moose diseases are you referring to that are increasing due to climate change, and not due to interspecies transmission?

To clarify you said "To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.". My point is that it is certainly far from "asinine". Data is showing more and more impacts from global warming that we would have been incapable of even modeling 10yrs ago. The more we learn the more we realize what we don't know. Humans have long history of impacting habitat and affecting populations. Examples: clearing land for farming in the east and midwest led to far more white tailed deer today than 200 yrs ago. More recently, no-till farming practices have completely changed waterfowl migration routes and resulted in healthier birds returning to breeding grounds- good news in some case, not so good in the case of snow geese. Today, pine beetles are devastating broad areas of forest across the west because winters are less severe (a big factor in pine beetle spread). Which species benefit and which pay a cost will take time to work out.

Below are some articles on moose. There is a ton of research but not a lot of answers. You seem to be missing the sequencing and jumping to the obvious. For example milder winters leads to more ticks, more ticks leads to more tick-borne disease, more parasites and disease leads to weaker animals, weaker animals get killed by predators more easily. So it is the wolves fault. Not totally incorrect, but probably the wrong cause. Like I said, it's complicated.

As Winters Warm, Blood-Sucking Ticks Drain Moose Dry

Researchers across New England and Canada scramble to protect the iconic species from growing parasite populations

www.scientificamerican.com

Moose numbers are dwindling, but why?

But Idaho moose are under threat.

apnews.com

 

[88man]

To clarify you said "To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.". My point is that it is certainly far from "asinine". Data is showing more and more impacts from global warming that we would have been incapable of even modeling 10yrs ago. The more we learn the more we realize what we don't know. Humans have long history of impacting habitat and affecting populations. Examples: clearing land for farming in the east and midwest led to far more white tailed deer today than 200 yrs ago. More recently, no-till farming practices have completely changed waterfowl migration routes and resulted in healthier birds returning to breeding grounds- good news in some case, not so good in the case of snow geese. Today, pine beetles are devastating broad areas of forest across the west because winters are less severe (a big factor in pine beetle spread). Which species benefit and which pay a cost will take time to work out.

Below are some articles on moose. There is a ton of research but not a lot of answers. You seem to be missing the sequencing and jumping to the obvious. For example milder winters leads to more ticks, more ticks leads to more tick-borne disease, more parasites and disease leads to weaker animals, weaker animals get killed by predators more easily. So it is the wolves fault. Not totally incorrect, but probably the wrong cause. Like I said, it's complicated.

As Winters Warm, Blood-Sucking Ticks Drain Moose Dry

Researchers across New England and Canada scramble to protect the iconic species from growing parasite populations

www.scientificamerican.com

Moose numbers are dwindling, but why?

But Idaho moose are under threat.

apnews.com

Colorado Moose doing great! No wolves. Wyoming Moose have been in severe decline in the wolf areas. Doing great where there are no wolves.
Climate change no way!!

 

[walking buffalo]

To clarify you said "To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.". My point is that it is certainly far from "asinine". Data is showing more and more impacts from global warming that we would have been incapable of even modeling 10yrs ago. The more we learn the more we realize what we don't know. Humans have long history of impacting habitat and affecting populations. Examples: clearing land for farming in the east and midwest led to far more white tailed deer today than 200 yrs ago. More recently, no-till farming practices have completely changed waterfowl migration routes and resulted in healthier birds returning to breeding grounds- good news in some case, not so good in the case of snow geese. Today, pine beetles are devastating broad areas of forest across the west because winters are less severe (a big factor in pine beetle spread). Which species benefit and which pay a cost will take time to work out.

Below are some articles on moose. There is a ton of research but not a lot of answers. You seem to be missing the sequencing and jumping to the obvious. For example milder winters leads to more ticks, more ticks leads to more tick-borne disease, more parasites and disease leads to weaker animals, weaker animals get killed by predators more easily. So it is the wolves fault. Not totally incorrect, but probably the wrong cause. Like I said, it's complicated.

As Winters Warm, Blood-Sucking Ticks Drain Moose Dry

Researchers across New England and Canada scramble to protect the iconic species from growing parasite populations

www.scientificamerican.com

Moose numbers are dwindling, but why?

But Idaho moose are under threat.

apnews.com

Any chance you can see the irony here?

Nothing you have brought up is related to climate change.
Sure, you want to say it is, but it isn't.
Beetles, ticks, doing exactly what they have done for thousands of years.

Before going off on another bender, focus on what I said.
To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.

 

[SAJ-99]

Any chance you can see the irony here?

Nothing you have brought up is related to climate change.
Sure, you want to say it is, but it isn't.
Beetles, ticks, doing exactly what they have done for thousands of years.

Before going off on another bender, focus on what I said.
To suggest that minute climate change over a few decades is making habitat unsuitable for this species to the point of causing wide ranging and large population declines is asinine.

Fail to see the irony. Focused on the quote again, and it is still wrong. I assume you don't know the definition of irony. Don't worry, happens a lot. Any chance you can see connections of second derivative effects? hint, that question is rhetorical. Yes, ticks do what ticks have always done, but THERE ARE MORE OF THEM.

Range Expansion of Tick Disease Vectors in North America: Implications for Spread of Tick-Borne Disease - PMC

Ticks are the major vectors of most disease-causing agents to humans, companion animals and wildlife. Moreover, ticks transmit a greater variety of pathogenic agents than any other blood-feeding arthropod. Ticks have been expanding their geographic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[BuzzH]

Colorado Moose doing great! No wolves. Wyoming Moose have been in severe decline in the wolf areas. Doing great where there are no wolves.
Climate change no way!!

Not true.

Moose in the Snowies and Bighorns are not "doing great"...a majority of cows are only having calves every other year, confirmed via uterine scars and also collaring data. Lots of reasons for it but mainly due to habitat, habitat that is changing due to things like massive MPB infestations, late seral plant communities, etc. Same thing in the areas with wolves and grizzly bears, its mainly a habitat issued combined with increased mortality from winter ticks and Elaeophora schneideri. I've personally found a half dozen moose, in the middle of summer, that died from E. Schneideri...both in areas with wolves and without. I've also observed several moose with ear and nose necrosis...another sign of E. Schneideri in the Snowies. I wonder why the increase in E. Schneideri and winter ticks?

Pretty convincing evidence that climate change is impacting moose because its not just happening in one place, its happening across the same latitudes across N. American and also Europe.

Carry on...

 

[walking buffalo]

Not true.

Moose in the Snowies and Bighorns are not "doing great"...a majority of cows are only having calves every other year, confirmed via uterine scars and also collaring data. Lots of reasons for it but mainly due to habitat, habitat that is changing due to things like massive MPB infestations, late seral plant communities, etc. Same thing in the areas with wolves and grizzly bears, its mainly a habitat issued combined with increased mortality from winter ticks and Elaeophora schneideri. I've personally found a half dozen moose, in the middle of summer, that died from E. Schneideri...both in areas with wolves and without. I've also observed several moose with ear and nose necrosis...another sign of E. Schneideri in the Snowies. I wonder why the increase in E. Schneideri and winter ticks?

Pretty convincing evidence that climate change is impacting moose because its not just happening in one place, its happening across the same latitudes across N. American and also Europe.

Carry on...

Pine is not exactly a great moose food.
Blaming MPB for poor moose habitat is,,,, you know.

Are ticks and flies new to the Snowies and the Bighorns?
Many diseases and parasites are found to have expanded ranges due to human induced transporation,
this vector has been directly linked as a cause for the spread of E. schneideri, not climate change.

Your observations give absolutely zero evidence that climate change is responsible for tick or worm moose mortalities.

You wonder why yet jump to being convinced that climate change is the cause....

 

[BuzzH]

Pine is not exactly a great moose food.
Blaming MPB for poor moose habitat is,,,, you know.

Are ticks and flies new to the Snowies and the Bighorns?
Many diseases and parasites are found to have expanded ranges due to human induced transporation,
this vector has been directly linked as a cause for the spread of E. schneideri, not climate change.

Your observations give absolutely zero evidence that climate change is responsible for tick or worm moose mortalities.

You wonder why yet jump to being convinced that climate change is the cause....

Rigggghhhhtttttt

9c93ab72-b0cb-4706-96bf-9f5be09e507a

wyocoopunit.org

https://wyocoopunit.org/wp-content/uploads/March2015SnowyRangeMoose_CaptureReport.pdf

https://wyocoopunit.org/wp-content/uploads/Jan16Report.pdf

New study links Wyoming moose fluctuations to habitat

Wyoming’s moose populations have always varied, some dropping at alarming rates and others steadily increasing.

trib.com

Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Units Program

 

[BuzzH]

I'll be....

“Moose are susceptible to ticks. Moose are not good groomers,” Campbell said. “High tick loads used to die off in the winter, but with warmer winters, we don’t see tick die-off that we used to see. So moose can accumulate ticks at high loads, up to 10,000 ticks per moose.”

According to Campbell, these ticks can spread disease and ticks gorging on moose blood meals can weaken the moose, making it vulnerable to predation.

“Predation is an ongoing research area,” Campbell said. “Moose rely on deep snow to avoid predators in the winter. We don’t always have deep snow. Without deep snow, then predators like wolves and mountain lions have an advantage over moose.”

Climate change brings a mixed bag for moose. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency predicts hot, dry summers and warm, wet winters for Idaho into the future. Hot, dry summers lead to more wildfires and possibly more moose habitat, but warmer winters with smaller snowpacks put moose at risk of tick infestations and predation.

Moose numbers are dwindling, but why?

By RACHEL HAGER Idaho Statesman BOISE, Idaho (AP) — Moose are one of the West’s most majestic animals and a once-in-a-lifetime hunting opportunity. But Idaho moose are under threat. In February, Idaho Fish and Game drastically cut the number of moose tags because of population declines across...

buckrail.com

 

[BuzzH]

The nutritional quality of available forage may be the
most important determinant in limiting population growth.
• Drought and climate change relating to forage quantity
and quality may also be contributing to population declines.
• Moose generally seek nutritious forage resulting from
wild and prescribed fres. However, the large-scale fres of
1988 may have removed thermal cover (conifers), resulting
in additional thermal summer stress and animals entering
the winter in reduced physical condition. (Research shows
that temperatures above 57°F stress moose.)

Cschneebeck.com

 

[88man]

I'll be....

“Moose are susceptible to ticks. Moose are not good groomers,” Campbell said. “High tick loads used to die off in the winter, but with warmer winters, we don’t see tick die-off that we used to see. So moose can accumulate ticks at high loads, up to 10,000 ticks per moose.”

According to Campbell, these ticks can spread disease and ticks gorging on moose blood meals can weaken the moose, making it vulnerable to predation.

“Predation is an ongoing research area,” Campbell said. “Moose rely on deep snow to avoid predators in the winter. We don’t always have deep snow. Without deep snow, then predators like wolves and mountain lions have an advantage over moose.”

Climate change brings a mixed bag for moose. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency predicts hot, dry summers and warm, wet winters for Idaho into the future. Hot, dry summers lead to more wildfires and possibly more moose habitat, but warmer winters with smaller snowpacks put moose at risk of tick infestations and predation.

Moose numbers are dwindling, but why?

By RACHEL HAGER Idaho Statesman BOISE, Idaho (AP) — Moose are one of the West’s most majestic animals and a once-in-a-lifetime hunting opportunity. But Idaho moose are under threat. In February, Idaho Fish and Game drastically cut the number of moose tags because of population declines across...

buckrail.com

We use the deep snow argument to say climate change has caused severe winters and these severe winters caused Mule Deer winter Kill way more than normal nut then say not enough snow for the moose and thats climate change. See climate change to some is the reason for everything!

 

[BuzzH]

We use the deep snow argument to say climate change has caused severe winters and these severe winters caused Mule Deer winter Kill way more than normal nut then say not enough snow for the moose and thats climate change. See climate change to some is the reason for everything!

The condition that deer go into winter in, is as, if not more important than the severity of the winter.

Monteith's studies with regard to body fat ultrasound work, are clearly showing this to be the case. In other words, deer that suffer from drought all year and go into winter with little body fat, they die a lot easier. Those that go into winter with a lot of body fat, a more severe winter doesn't impact them as much.

There's also pretty conclusive evidence that fawn survival is tied pretty closely to the body condition of the does and determines the fawns lot in life. The condition of the does is probably more important to trophy potential than genetics...again from Monteith's work.

 

[SAJ-99]

Forget it BuzzH. The only thing more frustrating than debating someone who can't read is debating someone who doesn't want to read. Even if you are 100% correct, you convince 0% of those people.
America's biggest problem today, IMO, is that most of the easy problems have been solved, because they were, well, easy. What is left is the complicated stuff. You can see in this thread how the burden of proof suddenly shifted from proving changing climate had an impact to proving it was THE cause. It just isn't that simple.

 

[88man]

The condition that deer go into winter in, is as, if not more important than the severity of the winter.

Monteith's studies with regard to body fat ultrasound work, are clearly showing this to be the case. In other words, deer that suffer from drought all year and go into winter with little body fat, they die a lot easier. Those that go into winter with a lot of body fat, a more severe winter doesn't impact them as much.

There's also pretty conclusive evidence that fawn survival is tied pretty closely to the body condition of the does and determines the fawns lot in life. The condition of the does is probably more important to trophy potential than genetics...again from Monteith's work.

If you remember? as I am asking how about the first set of antlers @ 1.5 years of age and the connection of pedicle size at 1.5 YOA as a determing factor on overall horn size at maturity. Does Monteith's finding show that also?