Wyo elk or antelope partner

[Muley_Stalker]

This is what I don't understand in this thread. Some of you feel it's fine to share your points with a family member, or a friend. Yet, you think it's wrong for someone else to share their points with Jim. If someone with points feels they would benefit from Jim's experience, and it's worth sharing their points. Why do you guys think it's wrong?

Nobody is forcing anybody to share their points. I'm sure anybody who has points and goes on a hunt with Jim will become good friends. They'll also walk away with elk hunting experience. Does it mean that now that they're friends it's ok to do it again next time they have points?

It seems to me some of you are trying to tell others what they should do with their points. I can't agree with this.

 

[JM77]

What jims is doing, could very well be illegal in Wyoming. He is offering his services as a guide for something of value(points).

 

[Muley_Stalker]

Not really. He doesn't get the points to do as he wishes with them.

 

[Jorgy]

What jims is doing, could very well be illegal in Wyoming. He is offering his services as a guide for something of value(points).

If you believe his research constitutes being a guide, then anyone who helps someone on this site would be considered a guide?

I've never been on a guided hunt, but I am pretty sure there is diaper service and tea at noon

 

[JM77]

If you believe his research constitutes being a guide, then anyone who helps someone on this site would be considered a guide?

I've never been on a guided hunt, but I am pretty sure there is diaper service and tea at noon

Guess you're not too familiar with outfitters and regulations in Wyoming...

 

[Jorgy]

Guess you're not too familiar with outfitters and regulations in Wyoming...

you will have to enlighten me on how this would be considered a guiding service

 

[MN Public Hunter]

Wow, this sure got some people fired up....

Here is how I see it...

So this guy is looking for someone to hunt with, quit your crying since he is 100% legally doing it. Good lord ! He and whomever paid for those points can do what they want and it's not up to YOU to decide how he and they use them or get in contact to use those point. Yes it's your opinion you don't like it, but cry and whine and move on.

Face it, Randy does/has done it and so have a lot of people here, they just never talk about. It's a dirty little secret. Buzz will do what he feels he needs to do and that is that. Personally I think all points should be gone and it's all a draw, just like others, not sure Buzz sees it that way, but I also believe he's open to his own opinion.

There are MANY people who go on hunts together here and help because of this website, that is what it's all about. Let's quit whining about points systems and how they are used.

Good luck jims, too bad so many people have to make this personal and side with certain people.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

What jims is doing, could very well be illegal in Wyoming. He is offering his services as a guide for something of value(points).

Come on Jeff! Are you telling me that a parent averaging PPs with their kid that has more should be classified/licensed as a Wyoming guide to be legal ? The only way to stop what you and BuzzH are objecting to is to eliminate partying by people other than those that have the same amount of PPs each to get away from this "what if?" discussion or to go to the system CO uses. The Wyoming G&F could have done the latter very easily if they had wanted to and they chose to go with what we have had since it's inception in 2006. Again, I would state that there has been no groundswell by NRs to change the system we were forced into, so let us use it as each sees fit whether it be with friends, family, or initial strangers. The end result, as mentioned by myself and BigFin yesterday, is that a few may get screwed in the draw while a few others may get helped, but it all probably equals out in the long run. IMHO if there is anything brought up by residents to change the NR averaging system, the G&F will be hearing from a lot of NRs with a lot of money invested in the present system that is working with no expectation that it would be changed in midstream like a few are advocating. Please don't forget that close to 80% of Wyoming fees that help run the G&F comes from us NRs and a lot of it involves PP fees. We can't vote so at least let us have our say in how we're treated in this PP draw system that we sure didn't ask for!

 

[junior71]

Outfitters have the keys!

I doubt anyone is going to change this deal!

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Let's not forget the topic of this thread. Jim is not asking for money. I don't see any abuse in what he's asking for. He's offering his experience for someone's points that helps both parties.

Yes, but it is super risky.

A- How do you know the information is good?

B- What if either one cannot make the hunt?

It is one thing to do it with someone that you know, but another thing to do it as a complete stranger. $640 dollars went into acquiring 8 preference points on elk and antelope, is it worth it to risk it and start over.

I've thought about the idea offering to take 2 random non residents into wilderness in elk unit 97 (traditionally leftover) using the resident free guide program, but it's hard to know who you can trust that can take that brutal country. What would happen if I sprain an ankle, blow a knee, strain a back the week before the hunt or get my vacation denied? I would effectively screw 2 people out of $600. It would be a lot more understanding if it was family and friends. I guess the point there is a lot that can happen on either end in the months leading up to the hunt.

As far as manipulating points systems goes, the Utah General Deer draw comes to mind, there is one unit that takes 5-6 points to draw and people apply for that unit and put the unit they want to hunt as there second choice gaining a point and hunting. While someone with less points has to wait for them to get through all five choices before moving onto the next point level. Depending on your group size you can hunt deer for as many years as it takes to get your party up to the 5-6 points to draw that unit.

When it comes to draws and points, a lot of systems have ways to hunt more often. It comes down to your personal preferences and beliefs. The Arizona system changed as a result of non resident pressure. Utah added the mountain goat tags in Beaver and Willard into the same pool as a result of non-resident pressure. You can change things as a non resident, but it is much more difficult because of the distance and the form of communication.

 

[LopeHunter]

That's exactly what's been going on in Oregon for at least the last 5 years. The ultimate abuse of the PP system. I have 20 Oregon pp for pronghorn. If I put that out there you would be surprised at the offers I would get.

I have 20+ points for Oregon Elk. All the best elk hunts I was looking at 2 decades ago now either have spike hunts or cow hunts and usually only have 1 NR tag in the draw every other year. Add in some wolves, bears, and loss of habitat as forestry slow down led to less grassy hillsides...well, hard for me to get excited about Oregon elk hunts. So, there is a market for idle points? Instead of StubHub it could be PointHub.

 

[BuzzH]

Come on Jeff! If a parent uses their PPs to party with one of their young kids to get tags, that kid just starting out gains a benefit like Jims and, in fact, will be "guided" by his parent. The only way to stop what you and BuzzH are objecting to is to eliminate partying by people other than those that have the same amount of PPs each to get away from this "what if?" discussion or to go to the system CO uses. The Wyoming G&F could have done the latter very easily if they had wanted to and they chose to go with what we have had since it's inceptoion in 2006. Again, I would state that there has been no groundswell by NRs to change the system we were forced into, so let us use it as each sees fit whether it be with friends, family, or initial strangers. Please don't forget that close to 80% of Wyoming fees that help run the G&F comes from us NRs and a lot of it involves PP fees. We can't vote so at least let us have our say in how we're treated in this PP draw system that we sure didn't ask for!

You're a broken record, the Rush Limbaugh of hunting forums. You spread misinformation, lie, and contradict yourself on regular basis.

On the one hand, you say NR's were "forced" into the PP system without any input...but now you want input and your voice heard...on a system you had no voice on from the start??? That's funny...you had no voice in the implementation but now think you'll influence any proposed changes? Even more funny.

What makes you "more right" than the NR's that are getting shafted from guys like jims? You looking out for them? Do you really care about the issue or do you only like to argue to hear yourself squawk?

Point systems change all the time, I've seen from 1-3 changes in point/drawing systems in CO, NM, AZ, MT, WY, etc. in probably the last 10 years.

Asking for party applications to enter the draw with the lowest point total of those in the party, is a pretty easy ask.

I hear its already being/been discussed

 

[BuzzH]

As to the law, I think it very well could be a violation what jims is doing.

Chapter 1 section 2 (v)

(v) “Guide Services” means for hire or remuneration, accompanying and
providing assistance of any kind to a hunter in the field relating to the taking of any big or
trophy game animal.

Chapter 1 section 2 (vi)

(vi) “Compensation” and “Remuneration” mean payment of any kind,
without regard to value or agreement, including tips, presents, exchange of property or
services, or bartering for guide services.

Further there is definitions regarding what an outfitter is:

Section 2 (b) "Outfitter" means a person including a hunting club, who advertises or holds
himself out to the public for hire or remuneration to provide guide service for
the purpose of taking any big or trophy game animal

Looks to me by jims posting/advertising on various websites to guide a hunter, for the remuneration of their points...he's pretty well in need of an outfitters license for that. Pretty sure jims is not a licensed outfitter in Wyoming.

At best jims is operating in a grey area of the law, and that may land him in a situation of doing some explaining to the WYGF.

 

[junior71]

I like point averaging with family and friends. It helps the blue collar guy for sure.
When you see a guy do it year after year now that's just greedy. I definitely don't agree with that, and really don't know the solution. I'd hate to see it go the CO route.
I guess if there was a deal put inn place where a guy could only average once every 3 years or something similar, per specie? Maybe it wouldn't look as bad? I don't have a voice as a NR.

 

[MN Public Hunter]

As to the law, I think it very well could be a violation what jims is doing.

Chapter 1 section 2 (v)

(v) “Guide Services” means for hire or remuneration, accompanying and
providing assistance of any kind to a hunter in the field relating to the taking of any big or
trophy game animal.

Chapter 1 section 2 (vi)

(vi) “Compensation” and “Remuneration” mean payment of any kind,
without regard to value or agreement, including tips, presents, exchange of property or
services, or bartering for guide services.

Further there is definitions regarding what an outfitter is:

Section 2 (b) "Outfitter" means a person including a hunting club, who advertises or holds
himself out to the public for hire or remuneration to provide guide service for
the purpose of taking any big or trophy game animal

Looks to me by jims posting/advertising on various websites to guide a hunter, for the remuneration of their points...he's pretty well in need of an outfitters license for that. Pretty sure jims is not a licensed outfitter in Wyoming.

At best jims is operating in a grey area of the law, and that may land him in a situation of doing some explaining to the WYGF.

So you are saying every time people put in on a party app they are all acting as guides? Because you are all "Remunerating" for each other if any one person has more points than the others.

 

[JLS]

Some of you guys are missing the point. jims is offering services, no matter how you cut it. They are services that are offered in return for the compensation of someone else's points. The services are ONLY available in return for the compensation. Some states even consider hunt swaps as outfitting.

I agree, he is putting himself very much in a grey area or possibly well past the grey area.

 

[JLS]

Party applications are offered as a convenience to hunters. The system is quite obviously being used in a way that it was not intended to be.

I personally find a rather large difference between party apps/point sharing with family and/or friends versus actively soliciting a high point total application partner in turn for hunting knowledge.

 

[BuzzH]

MN Public Hunter,

No, read it again. Jims is offering a service (guiding) in exchange for compensation (use of others points).

Simply averaging points is not the violation. The violation is offering a guiding service (which by definition jims DID), in exchange for the use of those points. That's bartering and also covered in statute, and likely a violation.

A group of friends simply point averaging, is not "advertising" on a website to guide another hunter, or soliciting a strangers points for the remuneration of the use of those points to obtain a tag.

 

[MN Public Hunter]

MN Public Hunter,

No, read it again. Jims is offering a service (guiding) in exchange for compensation (use of others points).

Simply averaging points is not the violation. The violation is offering a guiding service (which by definition jims DID), in exchange for the use of those points. That's bartering and also covered in statute, and likely a violation.

A group of friends simply point averaging, is not "advertising" on a website to guide another hunter, or soliciting a strangers points for the remuneration of the use of those points to obtain a tag.

I agree it's how you read it. I like free advice myself, but I guess if someone wants to hunt with him and share their points I'm not against it. I do see the point on how it all transpired, but sometimes that is how friendships start as well. It is also a big gamble like others have said, but I gambled by meeting up with some HT people, as I'm sure others have as well and it's still a good thing. We started with leftover tags and now are getting points to share, so I see it from both sides I guess.

 

[putm2sleep]

Sorry it struck a cord. Apologies HT hunting members.
Seems a lot like poaching to me - no different!? I don't save points or play games ....
Member of RMEf and SCI and raising a cool kid,
Hated to think some asshat can outpoint us and use our natural resource while we sit?

So thank you Buzz for you expertise and my sincere apologies to all for my attitude and poor response.
My sincere apologies to Randy, the host, and thanks for allowing me to have been part of the team.

Best regards,