Wilderness?

[Calif. Hunter]

Your values are certainly admirable, Big Fin, and your life choices courageous!

I also value wilderness areas. I just question how much we need compared to how many use it, why there is more designated wilderness needed when what already exists is not used by most people and whether what already exists is sufficient. That is the question that was originally asked, as I read it.

I have also said that more roads on public land should be closed. I don't understand why that cannot be accomplished without wilderness area designation.

 

[BuzzH]

Wilderness needs no more defense, only more defenders.
Edward Abbey




The Utah deserts and plateaus and canyons are not a country of big returns, but a country of spiritual healing, incomparable for contemplation, meditation, solitude, quiet, awe, peace of mind and body. We were born of wilderness, and we respond to it more than we sometimes realize. We depend upon it increasingly for relief from the termite life we have created. Factories, power plants, resorts, we can make anywhere. Wilderness, once we have given it up, is beyond our reconstruction.

-- Wallace Stegner, Wilderness at the Edge, 1990

 

[brymoore]

I'm waiting for the Owyhees to be designated a wilderness area. That'll piss off the OHV crowd.

 

[ELKCHSR]

How do you put a value on that?

Your right, you really can't put a value on what wilderness does for America

But it also goes to say, if you lock up all of your natural resources, you will be held hostage to the whims of those we have to go to get those resources, look at those countries who don’t have many or any resources to speak of

Whether we like it or not, the overall economy of this country is linked to its usage of those resources

It boils down to the fact you have to use and manage them to an extent or die as a country

We wouldn't be the first country to fail from the lack of resources (We have lots of natural resources, but not utilizing them means having none so to speak)

I by no means am advocating the Russia or China scenario of today, no one on this board is going that far, no matter what the accusations of a few

There has to be a balance and if that balance goes to far one way or another, we will all fail (extremism in any form doesn’t work)

I should also mention, the 50% is a number Buzz mentioned in an earlier post if you had read the whole thread

 

[BuzzH]

We DO NOT have to use all the land mass of the U.S. for resource extraction.

We could afford to put way, way, way more into wilderness and never impact the economy of the U.S.

That is a fact.

 

[ELKCHSR]

We DO NOT have to use all the land mass of the U.S. for resource extraction.

You will have to go back thru every post I've put up since getting on this board and find one where I've stipulated that "ALL" resources get utilized... Snicker... Snicker... Don't put words in my posts that never existed, or OVER EXAGGERATE what was said... I know you like to do this, but it doesn't fit well with the truth...

We could afford to put way, way, way more into wilderness and never impact the economy of the U.S.

I would start this by saying, what concept do you honestly have of the overall U.S. economy

I'm not detracting what you know about the environment but your history on this board in relation to economics is sadly lacking

Our economy is suffering because so many resources have been shut down around the U.S., this upcoming recession would be lessoned for sure if more resources were used to offset what is being consumed

Every where I go there is rotten forests that could have been used to help the economy even in there own small way (these aren’t in wilderness or supposed wilderness areas) whole towns have been shut down because extraction is politically incorrect

How does this help the overall economy?

It's easy for you to come up with all these things you say because you will be on the government dole for the rest of your life, most people in the small towns of the U.S. have more pride in themselves than that...

That is a fact.

The only facts on these topics I've seen from you is you can justify any thing in you want in your own mind no matter what the truth (go back to my first sentence in this post for more understanding)

 

[guppie9]

I will add a little more trivia to this topic...

The total sq ml of designated wilderness land for the U.S. is 20,347.84

This doesn't count those areas that are pending...

Maybe as overall land mass of the U.S. is concerned, this doesn't amount to a heck of a lot, but as I sit here as an individual, that's a lot of country to explore!!!

I think your numbers are significantly off.

Four federal agencies of the United States Government administer the U.S Wilderness Areas, which includes 702 wilderness areas and 107,436,608 acres (167,870 mi²). These agencies are the USFS, NPS, BLM, and USFWS. This is an area larger than the state of California or Iraq. The National Park Service has oversight of 44 million acres of wilderness at 47 locations. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has responsibility for nearly 21 million acres in 71 areas. The Bureau of Land Management oversees more than 6.5 million acres at 177 unique sites. The U.S. Forest Service oversees nearly 35 million acres of wilderness areas in 407 areas. Some wilderness areas are managed by multiple agencies, so the above totals exceed the actual number of units (680) in the system.

Of that 20,000 square miles...how many are in AK?

In Alaska, there are 58,182,216 acres of wilderness. This represents about 56% of the wilderness area in the United States.

 

[TheTone]

Seems to me we've done OK logging the country we have, why punch roads in and log areas we've thus far not done that to? Timber is a renewable resource.

As I said earlier there is a certain amount of satisfaction in just knowing something exists. Wilderness has a pretty high intrinsic IMO and thats fine by me.

Buzz, brilliant Stegner quote, guys a pretty decent writer.

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese said, "Every where I go there is rotten forests that could have been used to help the economy even in there own small way (these aren’t in wilderness or supposed wilderness areas) whole towns have been shut down because extraction is politically incorrect

How does this help the overall economy?

It's easy for you to come up with all these things you say because you will be on the government dole for the rest of your life, most people in the small towns of the U.S. have more pride in themselves than that..."


If the resource extraction industry and its proud people who make their living from it are so independent...why do they rely on FEDERAL TIMBER, FEDERAL GRAZING, FEDERAL MINING, etc. etc. etc.

They arent on the Government dole?

Holy crap dude...you need to find a clue.

 

[1_pointer]

One other attribute of wilderness is that the protections afforded it now allow it to be available for use for future generations. Think of it as resources in the bank...

Other than making it harder for some people to access and the prevention of most extraction industries, I have yet to see anyone make a strong case for the negative aspect of wilderness.

BGoat- The location of most of the wilderness areas in the mountain West, higher elevation country, does not preclude the effective management of game animals,IMO. Most of the counts are done in the winter/spring when a large portion of the animals are out of the wilderness. But, that is also part of the complication of state agencies managing wildlife on federal ground...

Cali- Where is there a wilderness area that is 100's of miles long by 100's of miles wide? If my calculations are right that would mean it would be a minimum of 6.4 million acres...

Big Fin- I definitely applaud you on you life choices!! Very well done sir...

 

[TBinKodiak]

I will add a little more trivia to this topic...

The total sq ml of designated wilderness land for the U.S. is 20,347.84

Maybe as overall land mass of the U.S. is concerned, this doesn't amount to a heck of a lot, but as I sit here as an individual, that's a lot of country to explore!!!

Well this little Island I live on is 3600 sq miles (about 18% of 20,347) with 80 miles of roads. You ever see a map of Alaska? Kodiak is just a spec if it shows up at all. I'd say 20,000 square miles ain't squat.
Then again this little island also has 5 times the amount of griz the entire lower 48 has combined. I doubt there'd be many people trekking into those wilderness areas if you had the same bear density we have, for 20K miles that'd be around 19,000 griz.
Am I for resource development? You bet, I'm also for some places left free from the greed of man.
Ten miles is a good hike, but it really ain't that far. Now for someone that only hunts from a truck window it may seem a little daunting, but with a little training they could hunt 5-10 miles in no problem (elk maybe not, but muley's for sure). I also realize that one day I will be too old to hunt that far back in, but I also realize then it's time to pass the torch on to the next generation. Heck I don't even have kids so I of all people should have the "cut and burn" mentality. The thing is I hate the "poor me" mentality, the same people that beotch about welfare will whine like children if they can't use a quad to hunt off. Wanna talk about lazy arses looking for a handout???
I say lock it up and hunt like a man.

 

[TBinKodiak]

OK Guess I should have known to check the chz's math. Kodiak Island is still about 2% of the total wilderness area though...

 

[BillyGoat]

I have also said that more roads on public land should be closed. I don't understand why that cannot be accomplished without wilderness area designation.

Because there is a fear being perpetuated that if the greenies are given an inch they'll end up with a mile and next thing we know we can't use the forest at all. Also, OHV riders freak out every time it is suggested that any road anywhere be closed.

I'm waiting for the Owyhees to be designated a wilderness area. That'll piss off the OHV crowd.

Is it under consideration? The poor quad-riding chukar hunters would have to get off their asses and walk to follow their dogs instead of bulldozing the sage brush.

BGoat- The location of most of the wilderness areas in the mountain West, higher elevation country, does not preclude the effective management of game animals,IMO. Most of the counts are done in the winter/spring when a large portion of the animals are out of the wilderness. But, that is also part of the complication of state agencies managing wildlife on federal ground...

That argument against additional wilderness designations was written by Darren La Sorte, manager of the NRA's hunting policy. I'll be the first to admit I know very little about game management.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Instead of just breezing over posts or reading the last threads with out following along with the whole topic, a few of you are obviously lost as to the whole conversation...

If you have questions as to where the numbers I found come from, the came from a web site ref. in post #62

TB thats just great for you, and your point is (besides getting in one more post) ???...

I'm not sure if the last part of your post was refering to me, seems so by the way you wrote it...

If that's the case, you haven't paid much attention to how differnt people on this board hunt

P.S. I'm not much of a motorized type of hunter, matter of fact, I can't seem to get any one to go along for one of my... hikes...

As to your last post... you have me a little lost on your line of thought

What does the math I posted have to do with Kodiak Island???

If you want to check the math, go to the web site posted and see for yourself...

 

[280]

Every where I go there is rotten forests that could have been used to help the economy even in there own small way (these aren’t in wilderness or supposed wilderness areas) whole towns have been shut down because extraction is politically incorrect

I challenge you elkcz to name one town that is shut down because "extraction is politically incorrect", you said it now back it up

 

[TBinKodiak]

Instead of just breezing over posts or reading the last threads with out following along with the whole topic, a few of you are obviously lost as to the whole conversation...

If you have questions as to where the numbers I found come from, the came from a web site ref. in post #62

TB thats just great for you, and your point is (besides getting in one more post) ???...

Point is that if its currently wilderness leave it as wilderness or make it wilderness. If it's been logged let it grow back and log it again. Parts of Kodiak have been logged and they figure it will only take 100 to 150 years before they can log it again. Trees are just starting to come back on the land they logged back in the 1950's. Now this is Native corp land so not really a fed land issue, but it's still an eyesore. Not to mention they are selling the timber for pennies on the dollar to the asian market.

I'm not sure if the last part of your post was refering to me, seems so by the way you wrote it...

If that's the case, you haven't paid much attention to how differnt people on this board hunt

Nope, wasn't aimed at you. Just quad hunters in general. Just being here 5 years I've seen trails punched back in a number of valleys. Good hunting for a year or two then it goes to sh@t and they try to find new areas. They just can't seem to figure out THEY are the problem not the access.

P.S. I'm not much of a motorized type of hunter, matter of fact, I can't seem to get any one to go along for one of my... hikes...

Want to go goat hunting this fall? Only 12 miles to the boundary, hell I'd even consider throwing in enough miles to get you here if you want to pay your way back...
Might even let you shoot a blacktail on the way out if you want.

As to your last post... you have me a little lost on your line of thought

What does the math I posted have to do with Kodiak Island???

If you want to check the math, go to the web site posted and see for yourself...

Checked the math and it doesn't add up to 20K sq miles. More like 167,869 sq miles (107,436,608 acres/640 = 167,869 sq miles), that's why I posted the correction.

Never intended to offend you and I really don't give a sh@t about the lower 48's problems with wild places. Just don't want to be over-run by a bunch of hippy hunters in years to come...
That and I got another post by replying to you...

 

[shoots-straight]

I have also said that more roads on public land should be closed. I don't understand why that cannot be accomplished without wilderness area designation.

Without wilderness designation area's closed to motorized vehicles are routinely used by ATVs, no teeth in the laws that protect them. Last year in two separate incidents, motorcycles drove all the way to the Idaho boarder and back running a guy over in the process that was hiking. This happened in the Selway Wilderness west of Hamilton. If their that bold in area's that if caught would cost them their vehicles and a stiff fine, do you think just having restrictions will work? The Off Road Vehicle association here in Ravalli Co. has many folks as members. In one meeting in Darby, conducted by the Forest Circus, as the Big Horn posted, these folks came out in numbers and ran with a mob type mentality, they intend to keep those rights one way or another. The only way I see it is to designate more until it's too late... Once it's gone you can never get it back.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Your right TB on the sq ml

It occurred to me while working on a project that I had used distance of a mile in feet and not 680 for acres in my haste to finish post, so came back in to correct my error, my bad

Thanks on the righteous catch...

I can't walk on water either as much fun as that would be...

Now this is Native corp land so not really a fed land issue, but it's still an eyesore. Not to mention they are selling the timber for pennies on the dollar to the asian market.

I can't help, nor have I condoned bad management practices on natural resources

This isn't what helps an economy

I've always been a proponent for sound management that helps to maximize profits

To answer one of Buzz's questions about "welfare extraction"

There are so many "extras" the 'gubmint' puts on these companies that extra's are paid so the companies go the extra mile beyond what the resource is worth to meet what ever objectives are wanting for that moment in time

Usually things like bridges that will last, extra material on road beds to keep them in shape, native plants brought back in, non essential personel who don't do much but stand around and make sure the work is completed etc... etc...

Some things I've seen are absolutely silly, others are essential

I don't make the decisions on what is good or bad but many here seem consistently intent on shooting the messenger because the messenger tells them things that 'hurt their feelings'

I've seen trails punched back in a number of valleys.

For the record, I am absolutely against this type of activity; this is one reason I trek into the back country away from human activity

Want to go goat hunting this fall? Only 12 miles to the boundary, hell I'd even consider throwing in enough miles to get you here if you want to pay your way back...

I might, can't make any promises, there's a lot on my plate any more, hence absence on the board to the disappointment of some and the giddiness of others, go figure...