Wild-ness, does it matter, or how much does it matter?

[Irrelevant]

I went out bird hunting this weekend with an acquaintance from work. He's been around our area his entire life so I let him pick the destination. He went with the second closest pheasant release site. See here in WA we don't have a lot of wild pheasants, at least not in the central portions. So the game dept dumps a truck load of these pen raised roosters a couple times a season at various locations, locations they readily tell you about. So I shot a limit of those ringnecks then added a couple of huns a little further from the truck. That night when processing the birds the ringnecks were LOADED with fat. The wild huns barely any. Then at dinner, we had some acquaintances over that don't eat a lot of wild game, and the wife remarked how great it was to eat organic-wild-free-range meat. But clearly that wasn't actually the case. Those ditch parrots were industrialized chickens with prettier plumage.

That all got me to thinking about hatchery trout, the classic put-and-take rainbows that damn near every state stocks (MT being wonderful exception), where you catch the damn things with soft play dough scented just like the pelleted fish food they've subsisted on most of their lives.

How many Americans are engaged in a lie? That's not really hunt and fishing is it? Then we are so many engaged in it, and why are we calling it hunting and fishing?

That then lead me to start thinking about all the invasives we pursue. I mean there are very few native upland birds that are pursued (again MT leading the way with Sharpies). All the brown trout people worship. Or the pig "hunting". Hell, even the whitetail, they might be "native" but they've expanded due to our habitat manipulation, most places the damn things wouldn't even qualify as organic meats.

How many hunts do we actually engage in were we're chasing wild, native game, across wild, unadulterated landscapes?

I hunt invasive chukars and huns; mallard and pintail in a marsh created of excess irrigation water; elk in clearcuts; bears behind an orchard, pronghorn around pump-jacks.

It really gives me extra sense of aw when I get to pursue high-mountain mule deer. They're really the only critter that in my realm feels like it's still holding on to the same wildness that it's always had.

 

[rwc101]

Virginia Game and Fish dump rainbow trout in a pond close to the Greast Dismal Swamp which is the height of absurdity. Any that weren't yanked out by fishermen soon after stocking would die from the heat.

 

[nontyp]

Hunting exotic species that are wild vs shooting pen raised animals is apples and oranges in my opinion. I agree though there are a lot of folks engaged in this market of shooting pen raised animals, and most of them like to pretend that they are hunting. I’m personally not a big fan. Here in Kansas the popular thing is to have new “hunter” events at shooting preserves for women and kids. Seems like a great way to learn hunting ethics right? put a bunch of tame birds in a patch of grass and fire away.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Few people realize that mtn goats and moose are introduced exotics in Colorado.

I have often had similar musings.

 

[bushman13]

Stocker Rainbow trout are the peace offerings from the game agencies. In Georgia they stock hundreds of thousands in the Chattahoochee river. And you know how hot the hooch gets. At least Alan Jackson does anyway.

 

[noharleyyet]

Waning hunt season existentialism doesn't lock threads..but it's still early. ; )

 

[Irrelevant]

Hunting exotic species that are wild vs shooting pen raised animals is apples and oranges in my opinion. I agree though there are a lot of folks engaged in this market of shooting pen raised animals, and most of them like to pretend that they are hunting. I’m personally not a big fan. Here in Kansas the popular thing is to have new “hunter” events at shooting preserves for women and kids. Seems like a great way to learn hunting ethics right? put a bunch of tame birds in a patch of grass and fire away.

I don't disagree they're way different... but how different are they really? I mean an exotic is likely thriving in a landscape where it's food/prey has not evolved any defense mechanisms/strategies.

 

[rwc101]

I guess this depends on the context, ie. what species is introduced where. A Wyoming trout stream is obviously close enough to brook trout habitat for them to thrive. They wouldn't be thriving if they didn't have defense mechanisms. My beef there is that stocking the brook trout directly competes with cutthroat. Planting pheasant in a field where they obviously cannot survive for the purpose of being shot has always seemed a bit sadistic.

 

[p_ham]

Stocker Rainbow trout are the peace offerings from the game agencies. In Georgia they stock hundreds of thousands in the Chattahoochee river. And you know how hot the hooch gets. At least Alan Jackson does anyway.

I like to use "hooch coochy" as a tempurature unit of measure. My wife does not approve.

I do get enjoyment in a different way when I catch a native cutt rather than a rainbow or brookie.
I absolutely love chasing elk "not native to NV."
Mule deer have an almost mystical allure to them, I dont know if it's because of their "wild-Ness" or just because as far back as I can remember, I've been hunting deer.
I like to keep my pronghorn hunting away from civilization, although you're never far from some kind of stock tank here.

I think wild-ness comes more from where you find it rather than how it got there.

P.s. stocked rainbows taste like monkey butt.

 

[Irrelevant]

Waning hunt season existentialism doesn't lock threads..but it's still early. ; )

I guess we have had a few more than normal lately... probably should have saved it for April.

 

[Oak]

Few people realize that mtn goats and moose are introduced exotics in Colorado.

I have often had similar musings.

The topic of mountain goats coincidentally came up for me a couple of days ago when a friend sent me the following message:

​

Years ago when there was a heated controversy over whether Rocky​

Mountain goats were native to Colorado, and the Rocky Mountain National Park​

Service killed them out of the Park because they weren't native animals, I​

produced some evidence that Goats were in fact native to Colorado. The​

original owner of the Mt. Princeton Ranch had killed a goat just above his​

ranch in the early 1900's. When Bierstadt first came into Estes Park area in​

the late 1800's he stated he saw goats. Course no one would believe that info-​

including the Game and Fish. I just read George Bird Grinnell's book written​

in 1913 titled HUNTING AT HIGH ALTITUDES, THE BOOK OF THE BOONE AND CROCKETT​

CLUB. On page 290 he states:​

"On the other hand there are two perfectly good records for the white goat far​

south of this region (Montana), in Colorado, as I pointed out in a paper​

published many years ago in FOREST AND STREAM. One of these was killed by John​

Willis, a former hunting partner of Colonel Roosevelt".​

Pretty compelling evidence that there were Rocky Mountain goats here before​

the turn of the century. Thought you might find this interesting.​

So I did some digging and found the referenced paper from the June 24, 1905 issue of Forest and Stream. It's a bit difficult to read but is legible.

Sorry for the digression. I agree with the OP that there's nothing like chasing mule deer.

 

[2rocky]

Enthusiasm is created through rewarding effort. Bird dogs, new hunters, kids, all benefit from a positive experience.

Some people don't move beyond the easy success. It takes a degree of desiring growth to challenge yourself and compete at a higher level. In life, as well as in the field.

Don't begrudge the folks picking the low hanging fruit. Some people gotta know how good the apple tastes before they buy a ladder for the ones higher up. Some peoples family already had a ladder, and some only have a step stool. Some folks built their Ladder. Let's help people build their own ladder...

 

[TheBenHoyle]

If you harvest an animal anywhere near row crop agriculture you can bet that meat would not qualify as "organic" since they most likely ate some of that row crop and it was raised using herbicides and pesticides and most likely the crops were GMO. However there is a huge spectrum from feedlot cows, chickens and pigs to wild high mountain mulies in terms of the, for lack of a better word, organicness. Personally I like to know where my food comes from, which is no easy feat for the majority of the population. I grow a decent amount in my garden and preserne it. I buy beef from my uncle's farm. I buy pork from a 4H-er. And I eat the animals I hunt for.

I have never understood the stocking of fish, but then I haven't spent a whole lot of time researching why it is done. Particularly in my neck of the woods (my county in Illinois), there is no hunting in publicly-owned land because that would be terrible to the animal lovers. Meanwhile they pay sharpshooters to go in to the preserves and cull the deer herd and remove coyotes and other such nuisance animals in an undercover manner. But they will also spend tax dollars to stock ponds and lakes with fish and no one really has a problem with people going out there to catch those fish. It is a strange dichotomy that I really can't understand. If I knew more about that when I moved to this part of the state, I wouldn't have moved here.

As far as habitat manipulation goes, that's not really anything new. Man has been around for a long time and they have constantly changed the landscape. Sometimes it benefitted their ability to kill wild game, often it pushed wild game away. It's all relative.

 

[Irrelevant]

I agree with the OP that there's nothing like chasing mule deer.

Understatement of the year coming from you!

Cool article.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Oak Thanks!

 

[Irrelevant]

Enthusiasm is created through rewarding effort. Bird dogs, new hunters, kids, all benefit from a positive experience.

Some people don't move beyond the easy success. It takes a degree of desiring growth to challenge yourself and compete at a higher level. In life, as well as in the field.

Don't begrudge the folks picking the low hanging fruit. Some people gotta know how good the apple tastes before they buy a ladder for the ones higher up. Some peoples family already had a ladder, and some only have a step stool. Some folks built their Ladder. Let's help people build their own ladder...

I have a real hard time with the answer being "let's make it easier" Not everything should be easy.

 

[jt13]

If they stopped stocking trout and pheasants in PA people would riot in the streets

 

[bushman13]

I used to argue with my own family at deer camp about this. They liked to think of the whitetails as some pristine food source. Right after watching the spray plane douse the entire area.

If you harvest an animal anywhere near row crop agriculture you can bet that meat would not qualify as "organic" since they most likely ate some of that row crop and it was raised using herbicides and pesticides and most likely the crops were GMO. However there is a huge spectrum from feedlot cows, chickens and pigs to wild high mountain mulies in terms of the, for lack of a better word, organicness. Personally I like to know where my food comes from, which is no easy feat for the majority of the population. I grow a decent amount in my garden and preserne it. I buy beef from my uncle's farm. I buy pork from a 4H-er. And I eat the animals I hunt for.

I have never understood the stocking of fish, but then I haven't spent a whole lot of time researching why it is done. Particularly in my neck of the woods (my county in Illinois), there is no hunting in publicly-owned land because that would be terrible to the animal lovers. Meanwhile they pay sharpshooters to go in to the preserves and cull the deer herd and remove coyotes and other such nuisance animals in an undercover manner. But they will also spend tax dollars to stock ponds and lakes with fish and no one really has a problem with people going out there to catch those fish. It is a strange dichotomy that I really can't understand. If I knew more about that when I moved to this part of the state, I wouldn't have moved here.

As far as habitat manipulation goes, that's not really anything new. Man has been around for a long time and they have constantly changed the landscape. Sometimes it benefitted their ability to kill wild game, often it pushed wild game away. It's all relative.

 

[TheBenHoyle]

I used to argue with my own family at deer camp about this. They liked to think of the whitetails as some pristine food source. Right after watching the spray plane douse the entire area.

As a percentage of biomass, deer eat way less GMO corn/beans than beef at a supermarket. But you can bet they are eating it if it is available.

 

[bushman13]

The GMO stuff does bother me long term, but what really scares me is RoundUp short term.

As a percentage of biomass, deer eat way less GMO corn/beans than beef at a supermarket. But you can bet they are eating it if it is available.