What to do with 8 Wyoming elk points?

[Tradewind]

I doubt I have the connections to change anything. When you say "Fix it," what is the the fix you are seeking?

If it is getting rid of these point schemes, that isn't happening. I have a video about to drop that explains why that won't ever change, no matter how much I dislike these schemes.

Let's take just one state and one species, Wyoming elk, which is the subject of this thread. Those elk points cost $50 each. Multiply that by 140,000 point buyers. That's an easy $7 million, without putting any additional pressure on elk, without selling one more tag beyond the 7,250 statutory non-resident limit. If Wyoming can generate that much money, from one species, in one year, with no additional hunting pressure placed on elk, it is not changing. Nor is it changing for other species in Wyoming or in other states where point selling is an alternative manner of raising funds without any pressure on the wildlife resource.

There will be tweaks and changes, but the systems are here to stay. I may not like them, but they are a reality, so I produce a lot of content around those systems in hopes it helps people who aren't inclined to hire a "tag consultant" to do their apps for them.

In that video, I give other ideas that I am sure will cause me to get lit up. Fine, light me up in the YT comment sections. Even with the push back I'll get, the ideas below are worth throwing out for discussion, as they would have an impact on the amount of point buying/collecting that currently exists. Here is a summary of the changes I think would be easiest to implement and have the most impact on "point collecting." And yes, I've "collected points" for species in states, so these ideas would also impact some of my applications.

1. No more point buying. You have to apply for a hunt code. I know a lot of folks buy points "Because you never know when you'll need them." That's fine, but allowing such is why we have states where more applicants have been buying points than actually apply for a hunt. This would sort out who is serious about hunting. This suggestion might not be necessary if the items below were adopted.

2. Adopt the Colorado system for party apps. The party gets assigned the same point total as the lowest point holder in the group. I get that point averaging has some reasons behind it. But, when you see people online seeking strangers to share points, maybe the Colorado system is the best route. And if that was adopted, maybe #1 above wouldn't be necessary.

3. No matter how you acquire a tag, your points get reset for that species. Doesn't matter, draw tag, auction, raffle, landowner tag, whatever; you get a tag, your points go to zero. Not sure why states wouldn't allow this one. Seems to have the least negative impacts with the greatest positive impact. Again, this might eliminate a need for #1.

4. Adopt the Nevada system for hunt choices. No matter what hunt choice you draw, you burn your points. Want a general tag, an OTC tag, draw your second choice hunt, get a leftover tag, receive a returned tag or get a tag awarded to you as an alternate, you use your points in the process. Imagine what that would do in Colorado OTC elk hunting pressure or how much it would reduce point creep from folks who do OTC while also building points. Imagine what it would do in MT for the limited entry hunt codes if you lost points for using a general tag.

The videos I've done for this season are to get people to think about these systems and how they are headed down a terminal path. I doubt it will change any minds. I'm sure this next video with the four ideas above will get even more comments, almost all will be complaints, given how much heat I got from my first video when I suggested people burn their CO and WY points before the big changes coming in the next five years.

I think there have been some threads here on HT that discuss some of these ideas I mention in the video.

Anyhow, back to your comment to "fix it." What do you want to see as "fixed?"

Exactly. It's all about the Benjamin's

 

[Irrelevant]

That is why I think Idaho (and NM and AK) should be commended for resisting that feel-good temptation of a point scheme, with schemes mostly pressed for by old gray-haired farts worried they won't get their fourth moose tag before they're done. If ever you see that idea again taking hold in ID, please use these platforms to combat such foolishness.

This same analysis I provided above holds true for the preference part of the UT system and the entire CO system. Just different churn rates due to different tag numbers, different numbers/percentages of non-residents as point collectors, and different maturity of the system based on how long it has been in place.

My Colorado spreadsheets are the oldest. They are a great historical road map to what happens as preference point schemes mature. And that history supports the same conclusion you and the Idaho bios came to. We are not many years away from some folks having applied long enough to accumulate 40 elk points in the Colorado system.

Wait, where were you on Dec 1? ID should not be "commended" for anything.

 

[WildWill]

Turn those preference points into bonus points. State still makes its $50/year per point and someone with 0 points still has a chance to draw

I believe that's what state's with preference point systems (Colorado and Wyoming) will eventually do. But that's a "bandaid on a bullet wound" fix and won't solve anything long term.


Blow up the system's everyone looses their points and everywhere goes random. Also only allowing NR to apply for 1 species per state would astronomically help NR draw odds across the west.

 

[Birddog916]

Utah has made some changes that might help with the creep including adding more hunts that one can burn points on including the ham hunts and various hunts during the rut in general units. Utah has also expanded opportunity by weapon choice in recent years. More muzzy hunts and archery hunts. This year they have integrated some new measures into their elk management plan. Here is a link to the upcoming changes:

Utah Wildlife Board approves new statewide elk management plan, changes to elk hunting and 2023–24 big game hunting season dates

The Utah Wildlife Board approved a new 10-year Utah Statewide Elk Management Plan, which includes several changes to elk hunting, along with a few other items during Thursday's public meeting at the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources' Eccles Wildlife Education Center.

wildlife.utah.gov

Who knows if these measures will work, but its nice to see some agencies trying to address the creep issue in a pro-active way.

 

[brockel]

Blow up the system's everyone looses their points and everywhere goes random. Also only allowing NR to apply for 1 species per state would astronomically help NR draw odds across the west.

To much money involved for it to ever be blown up now.

 

[WildWill]

To much money involved for it to ever be blown up now.

Sad but true. That's just my preferred pipe dream.

 

[QuazyQuinton]

Two ideas that would be mathematically effective in reducing point creep:

1. Limit the number of states a person can apply to. 10 years ago I applied in my home state. Now I apply or buy elk points in Oregon, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado. That means I'm driving point creep 5 times faster than I was 10 years ago. I have to think that forcing people to pick one state would immediately reverse point creep if that is the goal.

2. Pick a number and put a cap on points. Something like 10 points. Once you get to 10 points, you can continue to apply, but you just remain in the 10 point pool with everyone else with 10 points. This would allow the system to work as intended for 0-9 point hunts. It would also remove the incentive hunters have to chase the top-tier hunts and drive the crazy point creep for those hunts specifically.

Neither of these would be popular, but if reducing point creep is the goal....

QQ

 

[Birddog916]

To add to the above ideas, there has been mention many times over the years the idea of "point banking" in CO. This one is controversial, usually depending on where one sits in terms of points. Would it help take pressure off high point areas, put more hunters through the system, or only stand to wreck odds in midpoint hunts?

Also, with regard to CO again, have NO option to return your tag except with extreme medical circumstances that are documented. Too many people apply willy nilly knowing they can return the tag if they end up drawing something else or conditions just aren't looking great leading up to the hunt. And they can keep their points! The ability to return tags so easily should be ended.

In terms of "fixing it" - there is no fix as long as demand far exceeds supply, only creative ways to help alleviate it.

What is point banking?

 

[brownbear932008]

These ideas about multiple States somehow going together to solve these problems is nothing but an unrealistic dream. These States are in a battle over who can make the most off wildlife is the cold hard truth. They have been playing hopscotch for decades now.
There are no easy answers to these questions and there won't be. What is gonna happen is average Joe will eventually be priced out of non resident pools and you will have two options go guided or move to gain resident benefits. We are seeing the latter as we speak at a crazy high rate.

 

[Big Slick]

I’ve got 9 points that need to be used, oh what to do. First world problem I suppose.
I hope to draw a tag next year.

 

[brockel]

These ideas about multiple States somehow going together to solve these problems is nothing but an unrealistic dream. These States are in a battle over who can make the most off wildlife is the cold hard truth. They have been playing hopscotch for decades now.
There are no easy answers to these questions and there won't be. What is gonna happen is average Joe will eventually be priced out of non resident pools and you will have two options go guided or move to gain resident benefits. We are seeing the latter as we speak at a crazy high rate.

Montana FWP can’t even handle their own draw. Can you imagine if they had to check to make sure you didn’t apply in other states

 

[HiMtnHntr]

What is point banking?

Point Banking is when you only use the points required to draw a hunt, and you keep or "bank" the rest. They did this once already in Colorado one year as I recall.

 

[WapitiBob]

What is point banking?

Possibly the best scheme devised by man to tank low/mid level draw odds in the shortest amount of time.

 

[jakenbake]

I’m sure outfitters would truly hate not having the repeat clients each year

This is unquestionably something that would prevent a number of Big Fin's (imo excellent) suggestions from becoming reality. Outfitters want/"need" those repeat clients and making it so that OTC tags burn your points and/or mandatory sit-out periods would blow that aspect of their business sky high.

 

[RobertD]

Also only allowing NR to apply for 1 species per state would astronomically help NR draw odds across the west.

I wish. It's a sign of how spoiled we are that many of us can just throw three or four apps per state against a wall and see what sticks. Should be forced to pick one animal a year to hunt in each state (as NR, not residents).

 

[WapitiBob]

I wish. It's a sign of how spoiled we are that many of us can just throw three or four apps per state against a wall and see what sticks. Should be forced to pick one animal a year to hunt in each state (as NR, not residents).

Why stop there, just stay in your own state.

 

[RobertD]

Why stop there, just stay in your own state.

Oh my bad I thought this was a thread for sharing opinions on NR elk opportunities.

 

[brownbear932008]

So I have a question on points/party apps. So I know Wyoming averaged points in the party. But here's my question if you go in as a party of three guys and fail to draw in the point pool, you're then kicked over to the random draw. Is the party app split at that point into three apps or are you still a party of three in the random? If still a party of three and say there is only one random tag is your party app kicked out?
I have searched everywhere for this answer this evening so I am now here making a dummy of myself.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

In the case of WY, you'll all three be in for a random if there are any. If you draw, the G&F will award extra tags beyond the quota.

 

[232401a]

1. No more point buying. You have to apply for a hunt code.

On balance, I don’t think it would matter much if states disallowed POINTS ONLY apps.

In almost every state/species/system, I could find a way to apply for an unobtainable (or nearly unobtainable) tag. So, I’d still get my annual point even if I couldn’t technically apply for POINTS ONLY.

And once we all caught on to doing that, those “app dump” tag codes would have odds so close to zero that those codes would essentially function as POINTS ONLY apps for us.

But yes, the person would have to accept a small risk of drawing to do this.