What is waste?

[James Riley]

I don't want to hijack other threads because I truly believe those who fail to pack out meat should be publicly shamed.

That said, is the meat really wasted?

I've often wondered about the potential negative impact of my shed collecting. I am, after all, removing calcium and other minerals from the environment. Same with antlers from my kills.

When cattle consume public lands grass, go to slaughter, are purchased in the grocery store, and eaten by me, the nutrients end up in a drain-field. Worse yet, for most Americans, the nutrients end up in a municipal waste water treatment plant, and maybe spread on some disposal facility miles from the public lands from which they came.

When we eat vegetables, farmed from Midwestern soil, we likewise mine the minerals from that soil, which ultimately end up where the hamburgers go. We then mine other minerals, or create them in labs, putting them back into that soil as fertilizer. All because those soils have become lacking in all the nutrients they used to have naturally. Those soils are no longer nutritious.

Thus, when I think of this elk or that deer, or that moose, killed only for the rack, with it's body left "to rot", I think of the panoply of microbes and scavengers who will take that animal home. Otherwise it would end up elsewhere, in an urban waste disposal facility. In my mind, therein lies the waste.

Again, I'm not justifying the criminals or excusing their actions. However, I just can't help envisioning a family of ravens, coyotes, bear, vulture, etc., eyes dancing, and hearts pounding in glee at this manna from heaven, of which they would otherwise be permanently deprived. It might be, for them, something akin to finding briefcase full of money on the side of the road. They see no waste. This is no waste. There is no shame in their partaking.

My point here is this: When we kill wildlife and then consume it, this can be so much more than the mere taking, simply saying grace before we eat, eating, and then giving nothing back. Rather, we can be receivers, living in grace with what we eat, eating, and then giving back in other ways. Those who eat wild animals should remember this when they pack the meat home and eat it. If we are what we eat, then we are good. Let it be not waste to do so. Let it be good. Give back. Think of ways to give back. Honor that which sustains. Failure to do so is waste. And a shame.

 

[Nameless Range]

Good post and I largely agree. I have hunted for 20 years and only recently is the feeling that I have an obligation to give back to the land been something I have experienced.

Maybe "waste" isn't a good word to use when it comes to our disgust at someone killing an animal simply for it's head. I think our disgust at such acts are similar to the disgust we feel at a lot of violations of the social contract, which stems from our collective values, and is built on a lot of premises:

- We value human life most
- We value live elk more than dead elk. Maybe this isn't entirely right, but we value an animal living it's life and maybe even dying naturally, more than an animal's life being ended for those cheaper human emotions - greed, ego, maliciousness.
- If we are killing an elk and therefore reducing that elk's value then it should be to support that life we value most - human.
- We don't place a high value on birds, and even less so on microbes, relative to the value elk and humans have.
- Basically we recognize that we don't have to kill elk to eat, and that doing so ethically requires a moral justification, that being our food. When we separate hunting from food, it becomes cheap to us.

I'm not building a logical argument with those points. Just some thoughts over coffee. None of that cheapens the circle of life. Humans have to come up with a code or we cause to much damage, and that code needs some justification. Perhaps our disgust is simply a cultural aspect of being raised and taught the code. Maybe since populations of people were lower and animals higher, the hunters of yesteryear would have no problem with killing a critter for nothing but it's horns, but I don't think that was the case. At least in Native American history we are taught they took the killing of something seriously, though they had no knowledge of microbes. You make a good point that we are taking nutrients, and the good stuff of earth, and relocating it to population centers often 100s of miles a way.

When you say, "giving back in other ways", what are you thinking?

 

[Matt/VT]

Interesting stuff. I first contemplated 'waste' with hunting when I wounded and lost a deer. I found it, much later, and it's carcass had been consumed. I still felt bad, but that deer did not go to waste, other than that it was not being utilized by a human. I think our concept of waste is often human-centric.

I used to think that the idea of salmon spawning and dying as a waste, but when I read about that cycle perhaps being a way nutrients are moved back uphill (via bears) from the ocean, I was awestruck by the impressive, complex, cyclic nature of the thing, on a scale much larger than me. That said, when my body rots, I hope it is somewhere well uphill and far back, letting those things that made me enrich yet another life. (I just hope it isn't too soon, and really, not by a bear.)

As for native peoples, historically, there was indeed a less-than-full human utilization. Think of buffalo jumps- not everything was used there by the people doing the killing. I think we idealize the idea of their historic 'full' use, though their seriousness remains.

Good food for thought as I head into the woods of New England. Thanks.

 

[dcopas78]

nutrients end up in a municipal waste water treatment plant, and maybe spread on some disposal facility miles from the public lands from which they came.

Actually it's worse than that. The biosolids my plants produce are taken to landfill where they serve very little purpose other than taking up airspace in the landfill and maybe augmenting the breakdown of the trash somewhat. I used to land apply but changing regulations (or over-regulation) and lack of cooperation from the farmer, forced me to take it to landfill.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This is why I pack processed, soft white wood fibers with me in a bag when I am out hunting. After several cups of coffee and a short hike I'm usually ready to deposit my nutrient contribution back to Mother Earth. I like to think of it as my part of contributing to a symbiotic relationship of life. I always feel better when I'm done.


On the subject of meat wastage... Fact of the matter is only a very small percentage of hunters depend completely on wild game for their food. There are easier ways to get calories for most of us than hunting. This reality leads some "hunters" to not value an animal's meat and they end up leaving or discarding edible portions. Ignorance and lack of skills can accentuate this problem but I think most waste occurs because some hunters value the animal they kill for the experience of the hunt and not intrinsically because it was an animal or because they are dependent on the meat.

Last week I found the carcass of a cow elk that had been killed and salvaged according to the "legal" definition of MT meat salvage laws. As required by law they had taken the four quarters and the backstraps and not touched anything else. There was still over 40-50 lbs. of salvageable meat on the neck, sides, brisket and flanks. Legal? Sure. Ethical? Absolutely not, IMO.

 

[jzeck2]

I think it boils down to not what some of us may see as waste vs. recycling back into the ecosystem but what the broader public sees as waste. Most of the general public are in favor of hunting if it is being used as human food. If asked the question if they support trophy hunting (as they perceive trophy hunting as being after horn or antlers only) that support rapidly disappears. So I think as a hunter who wants to see other generations enjoy what I have enjoyed we better consider the broader societies views as far as what is and is not waste.

As for me, It is food #1, #2, & #3. Any animal I kill that doesn't end up in my freezer is wasted. If it doesn't end up in my freezer because I decide to only pack out the horns and not the meat then I don't deserve to practice this privilege. And yes it is a privilege we enjoy by the good graces of the other 85% of the population.

 

[BuzzH]

Last week I found the carcass of a cow elk that had been killed and salvaged according to the "legal" definition of MT meat salvage laws. As required by law they had taken the four quarters and the backstraps and not touched anything else. There was still over 40-50 lbs. of salvageable meat on the neck, sides, brisket and flanks. Legal? Sure. Ethical? Absolutely not, IMO.

I don't know that I agree with that assessment.

I've done my share of cutting up neck meat, brisket, and rib meat...about 80% of what I pack back, ends up in the garbage can when I get home. When I cut up an animal, I have a, "if in doubt, throw it out" perspective when it comes to blood-shot stuff, dirt, etc. I would rather have 50 lbs of perfect deer meat that I will use, than 56 pounds of "iffy" deer meat that will freezer burn, just to say I didn't "waste" anything.

I have no problem leaving a little something on the carcass for the magpies, crows, eagles, bobcats, fox, coyotes, wolverines, martens, bears, gray jays, chickadees, etc. Leaving some nutrients behind to benefit other forms of life is part of it, IMO.

This isn't to say that I condone leaving a hind quarter, shoulder, or back strap just because I'm too lazy to pack it...but I'm not going to pick the meat off the rib cage of a deer or antelope either. Other animals will enjoy that rib meat way more than my trash can.

 

[TRS_Montana]

This is a great thread. Nameless, you make some great points. According to the laws of thermodynamics, energy (or matter) can neither be created or destroyed, merely changed in state. When an animal dies, it is not destroyed. It undergoes a massive transformation. It's consciousness is ended, but what that means is anyone's guess.
What is difficult for me is the thought that something suffered more than necessary at the end of its life, which is usually the case with wounded/lost animals. I think this thought primarily comes from anthropomorphizing animals, which (to a degree) is impossible to avoid.
I agree that people are disgusted by those that "waste" meat because it says something about the person, and not necessarily because it is food that could have gone to feeding someone. It is a blatant disrespect for the animals and for the experience of the hunt (which is unique to every individual).
I am kind of with Buzz on the "if in doubt, throw it out" mentality. There have been times that I have scraped every bone clean, thinking I am doing justice to the cycle of life and death. Invariably, we eat less of the meat then if I had left the scraps to the scavengers.

I love these kinds of posts, though. Really gets a guy thinking about the value of hunting and weight of taking lives.

 

[James Riley]

When you say, "giving back in other ways", what are you thinking?

I had a long-winded response to this excellent question but when it all boils down, I'm full of shit.

I try to reduce my footprint, but I don't try hard enough. And that doesn't really constituent giving back. I contribute to and champion certain environmental causes, but I don't contribute or champion enough.

I could go on but there is no way anything I say or do could ever possibly come close to balancing out what I have received in the way of space, clean air, clean water and wild food. Hell, even what I receive that is not wild has displaced it. I owe. I try to live in grace. I fail.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

I whole heartedly agree that wanton waste is a terrible thing. So leaving a quarter or backstrap is a low life thing to do. I have to agree with buzz on my perspective of edible portions but I know many will disagree.

I have always wondered though why leaving a deer because we couldn't recover it causes so much heartache but a dead groundhog or similar varmint gets thrown back in the hole without a second thought.

 

[Little Big Man MT Chris]

my dad always taught me pack out what you pack in and dont litter and take some extra if you can , which is now ingrained in me so when hunting i will stop and pic up trash at campsite or beer cans some a hole chucked out his window, i always try to leave the woods better than i found it , its takes only a second to stop hunting or fishing and pick up a few items each day, its a way i give back to the land

 

[1_pointer]

I whole heartedly agree that wanton waste is a terrible thing. So leaving a quarter or backstrap is a low life thing to do. I have to agree with buzz on my perspective of edible portions but I know many will disagree.

I have always wondered though why leaving a deer because we couldn't recover it causes so much heartache but a dead groundhog or similar varmint gets thrown back in the hole without a second thought.

To your last sentence, because we place different values on different animals. We value some species more (deer > groundhog) and some individuals of a species (trophy buck > doe) more. Similar to someone who is anti-hunting uses bug/rodent traps or poison, but hates hunting.

 

[James Riley]

"Man is the measure of all things." Protagoras.

However, just because he's airborne doesn't mean he's flying.

 

[Backstrap]

Great thread! Certainly nothing left in it's natural habitat is "wasted".

I agree with Buzz that putting iffy meat in my burger bags doesn't feel good at the table. Throwing out scraps isn't very cool to me either. The past few years I have ground everything (including connective tissue and fat) leftover and feed it to my chickens. They love the protein and have a spurt of extra egg production. I make the bones into stock.

It all feels like I have found the way that works for me.

 

[Irrelevant]

I fully believe that nothing that dies in the wild goes to waste. Camp robbers and coyotes, earthworms and yellow-jackets all need to eat. That being said, they got screwed on my elk this week. We took just about everything but the guts (even took a few of them including some caul fat).

That doesn't dissolve us from putting in every effort to find a wounded critter or to pack out all the edible portions. But when that's not possible I'm resigned to be disappointed but no longer distraught, it does not make me, or others, a horrible person when we cannot find a wounded critter. Mistakes happen, take the experience and use it as motivation toward practice and patience.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Everyone is assuming that the animals we kill are as good for nature as one that died of natural causes.
Accubonds vs ttsx anyone?
Food for thought.

 

[Elkmagnet]

That doesn't dissolve us from putting in every effort to find a wounded critter or to pack out all the edible portions. But when that's not possible I'm resigned to be disappointed but no longer distraught, it does not make me, or others, a horrible person when we cannot find a wounded critter. Mistakes happen, take the experience and use it as motivation toward practice and patience.

I have wounded an animal I was not able to recover. I was sad. No more for the wasted meat or lost horns than the unintended suffering I had caused the animal with my incompetence.
I had also not live up to my standards and my ego needed time to accept it.
My point being there are many levels why "waisting" an animal sucks.

 

[1_pointer]

Everyone is assuming that the animals we kill are as good for nature as one that died of natural causes.
Accubonds vs ttsx anyone?
Food for thought.

Even with the rodeo I had in getting my first bull, I'm still not worried about the amount of Pb deposited on that ID hillside or in that gut pile...