What if there were no point schemes?

[ImBillT]

OFFS dude. So to the guys that have been buying points for 25 years, we should abolish the point systems and give them a big F you?

Actually no. The end point would be random. I would expect a long transition away from points. There are things that can be done to transition away from points. No new points can be accumulated. Preference points become squared, squared points become un-squared. X% of tags are drawn by the original point system and Y% are then random until certain time. That time could be when total point drops, or maximum points, or median points drop below a certain number, or for a certain number of years. There could be tweaks to any of the above as well, like capping points at ten or twenty. If

Keep in mind that the regs in many states remind you that buying a point guarantees you nothing and is of no monetary value etc. You should know when you buy in that anything can change at any time. Nonetheless, I would not advocate that points people had already bought should simply vanish. It’s a system that I do not like, but that doesn’t mean that people playing by the rules should have the rug yanked out from under them and be left completely in the cold.

 

[ImBillT]

Well since you put forth an idea for everyone to shoot holes in here's mine, fire away...

I don't think there is a one size fits all, but for CO at the least I wonder if you could move the entire state over to a system similar to the MSG system. Your first three points are prefer points, then after that you get bonus points. So someone with 15 points today would have 3 pref points and 12 bonus points. If you moved to this system you would definitely be de-valuing the points of those folks with more than 3 pts but they still get an advantage in the draw.

To make it even better you could eliminate future accumulation of bonus points, so once the current bonus point holders are done then it's 3 pref point then a random draw. Seems like this would be a fair-ish way of getting us out of the point system, would keep people in the system year to year, would keep someone from drawing the best units their first time out, and still be fair all around.

I actually like that. My original post outlined an imaginary end point, not the transition. I would never recommend that people heavily invested in a point system should instantly loose everything.

I think you/CO are onto something with a minimum number of applications before you could draw, but that number is something sane. Randy has mentioned being favor of wait periods for certain units. That would eliminate the guy who draws the .1% four times in a row. What if it was completely random, but certain hunts had a three year wait, and others had a five year wait? So Randy talks about short term, mid term, and long term plans. What if hunts were organized into three tiers, A,B, and C. A hunts can be drawn at any time, if you draw a B hunt a state, you cannot apply for any more B hunts in that state for three years, but can still apply for A, and C hunts. If you draw a C hunt then you can’t apply for a C hunt for five years. The years could be different, or once in a life-time. Or, under your minimum point suggestion, what if could apply for A hunts with 0A points, but could not apply for a B hunt until you had 3 B points, and could not apply for a C hunt until you had 5 C points. The points simply get you into the random drawing for that their, but you cannot ever exceed the points required, and once you draw you rest to zero for that tier. I don’t really like that, but it’s something of an option.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So Randy talks about short term, mid term, and long term plans. What if hunts were organized into three tiers, A,B, and C.

Yeah, I like the premise. You definitely seem huge breaks in the points between units, in most there are the OTC or almost OTC units, the 5-8 units, and 15+ units. There are definitely huge no man land point levels where you will never draw the top units but have way more points then the next tier below.

 

[ImBillT]

So my original post was based on ten states, but it wouldn’t require all ten to start. I also didn’t intend for all the states involved to be required to have the same license prices or anything like that. The idea was simply to coordinated applications and refunds enough to allow them to go to a random draw and mutually benefit. It could start with two states. New Mexico and Idaho are already random. I would be more likely to apply for a HR of a hunt in Idaho if I could get a refund on a mediocre hunt I had already drawn in NM a few months prior. What’s in it for Idaho? Well obviously more applicants. What’s in it for NM? Well a 90% refund would give them 10% extra on however many tags were refunded and resold, but maybe that’s not really enough to justify a second drawing. New Mexico could make it a part of the deal, they offer a 90% refund up to two weeks after the Idaho results are posted, if in return they get to sell a combo license when people apply for the NM draw. So NM offers an Idaho license for $145 if you buy at the time that you apply in NM, and they keep $15 for the trouble. I save $10 on my licenses, NM makes $15 extra, and Idaho gets a license sale they may not have made otherwise.

Again, this doesn’t increase opportunity. It simply solves the biggest problem of random draws.

On a side note, points give a false representation of demand. A personal example is this, my wife and I are expecting our first child this summer. I really don’t want to plan to be away for too many days too early. I’m planning to elk and mule deer hunt in Oct and Nov, but a long hunt plus travel in Sept is a little early. I live near NM and the hunts are only three days, so if I draw a pronghorn tag there, I’ll squeeze it in. On the other hand, Utah would be a bit much. What did I do? I bought a point. I actually had absolutely no intention of hunting pronghorn in Utah this year, but I have the same statistical benefit of someone who “missed out”.

 

[Pelican]

I admit to disliking preference/bonus point systems, but decided to try being objective and reconsider the systems here in CO based on the perceived benefits from when point systems were implemented. Colorado essentially has two different systems: moose/sheep/goats (MSG) draws use weighted points and deer/elk/antelope/bear (DEAB) draws use a strict (mostly) preference point system. When CO started issuing points, the general consensus was a point system would equitably distribute permits by (A) preventing any individual from drawing a coveted permit two years in a row and (B) ensure everyone eventually drew the permit they desire. If we only knew then what we know now.

The CO systems for the DEAB draw accomplishes (A) very well. When I thought about it, the CO system also accomplishes (B) for most hunt codes and permits throughout the state in the DEAB draw. The vast majority of the DEAB permits take < 10 points, so the systems is working for probably 98% of the permits. The exceptions are of course the really coveted tags where point creep is making them farther out of reach each year for new hunters.

With the MSG draw, the PP systems along with mandatory waiting periods have accomplished (A), but due to demand exceeding supply by a wide margin, we are never going to get to a point where (B) will be accomplished. As (A) can and is accomplished through mandatory waiting periods and (B) will never be achieved due to the disparity between supply and demand, the Colorado MSP point system is failing to accomplish what people thought it would accomplish, whereas the current systems for DEAB is functioning well for most hunt codes. I have never been a supporter of point systems, but I guess I have to eat a little crow as the Colorado DEAB systems seems to be working. Point creep is always going to be there, like death and taxes. Changing/coordinating the systems isn’t going to solve that.

 

[LaSportsman]

Fairness keeps coming up. Coincidentally, I read chapter 4 of Admiral William McRaven’s book, "Make Your Bed." Chapter 4 is "Life's not fair - Drive on!"

One topic not discussed unless I missed it is resident vs nonresident quotas. Even in a random, no points draw, residents will have exponentially better odds. States have the right to set rules and to favor their state tax payers. As Americans, we have the right to move to a new state, including one with a game management system we like if it's important to us.

GMUs are necessary as a game management tool. No GMUs, no trophy animals. GMUs allow some areas to be managed for quality and others for opportunity.

I think the best option is CO for Elk and AZ for deer. CO offers OTC Elk. You are going to hunt hard and have lots of company but it's a guaranteed hunt. You can hunt deer in nearly every GMU in AZ with an OTC archery tag. Success rate is low but it's a guaranteed hunt, usually for 30 days.

My home state offers multiple whitetail tags with a $32 big game and basic hunting license but I need access (hunting club) and Game and Fish has no money to manage quality and quantity of wildlife. I'd rather hunt AZ (my current state) with points, OTC, and public land.

 

[jeremys4]

So Obama game platform you get tags for free. Next communism and none of hunt unless we know a senator that sold the land we used to hunt. What state do you live in bill. Other than a state of delusion. If your upset with your odds move to a state with otc tags and hunt every year. Big fin has stated that between him and his wife the left 1,000,000 dollars on the table to be able to hunt every year. Get over it I will oppose any changes in the Nevada point system.

 

[jeremys4]

I blame dinkshooter he must have pissed off bill by letting him know he has less than a snowballs chance in hell at a Henry mountain tag. Dink otherwise a stand up dude send bill some midol.

 

[ImBillT]

So Obama game platform you get tags for free. Next communism and none of hunt unless we know a senator that sold the land we used to hunt. What state do you live in bill. Other than a state of delusion. If your upset with your odds move to a state with otc tags and hunt every year. Big fin has stated that between him and his wife the left 1,000,000 dollars on the table to be able to hunt every year. Get over it I will oppose any changes in the Nevada point system.

None of my posts refer to free tags, or cheaper tags, or increased total opportunity(tags/hunter). I’m playing the point game in two states and if I don’t draw NM, I will either do Idaho or CO. I will hunt every year right where I am unless things change. You also know full well that Fin would go to random on everything in a heartbeat. The only thing the coordination would do is allow taking every state to a random draw, without forcing a hunter to avoid applying in certain states or risk holding more tags than he wants.

 

[ImBillT]

I blame dinkshooter he must have pissed off bill by letting him know he has less than a snowballs chance in hell at a Henry mountain tag. Dink otherwise a stand up dude send bill some midol.

I knew that long before I read anything Dink ever said about points.

 

[TheGrayRider]

The points system in every single state is a scam. Why? Because every single state game and fish agency can change the rules of the draw game whenever they want. 4 strikes you’re out... Move the goalposts to the 5 yard line to help the kicker type-scenarios. We need more money - jack up the fees and reduce the number of tags.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Fairness keeps coming up. Coincidentally, I read chapter 4 of Admiral William McRaney's book, "Make Your Bed." Chapter 4 is "Life's not fair - Drive on!"

Seriously... at the end of the day this is about having great herds for future generations. As long as wildlife agencies are managing to that end, giving you the stink eye Montana, I'm happy.

 

[bushman13]

There are plenty of trophy animals in states without GMU's. Think about all the states where whitetails are the main quarry.

Fairness keeps coming up. Coincidentally, I read chapter 4 of Admiral William McRaney's book, "Make Your Bed." Chapter 4 is "Life's not fair - Drive on!"

One topic not discussed unless I missed it is resident vs nonresident quotas. Even in a random, no points draw, residents will have exponentially better odds. States have the right to set rules and to favor their state tax payers. As Americans, we have the right to move to a new state, including one with a game management system we like if it's important to us.

GMUs are necessary as a game management tool. No GMUs, no trophy animals. GMUs allow some areas to be managed for quality and others for opportunity.

I think the best option is CO for Elk and AZ for deer. CO offers OTC Elk. You are going to hunt hard and have lots of company but it's a guaranteed hunt. You can hunt deer in nearly every GMU in AZ with an OTC archery tag. Success rate is low but it's a guaranteed hunt, usually for 30 days.

My home state offers multiple whitetail tags with a $32 big game and basic hunting license but I need access (hunting club) and Game and Fish has no money to manage quality and quantity of wildlife. I'd rather hunt AZ (my current state) with points, OTC, and public land.

 

[madtom]

There are plenty of trophy animals in states without GMU's. Think about all the states where whitetails are the main quarry.

Can you think of a state known for trophy whitetails where there are no GMUs and the hunts take place mostly on public land? I can't.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

There are plenty of trophy animals in states without GMU's. Think about all the states where whitetails are the main quarry.

Pretty sure every state has zones/GMUs/ districts/etc...

There are states that have general season tags that are good state wide/or for most of the state for specific species if that's what your referring, whether the state chooses to enforce quotas on specific areas doesn't mean they don't divide them into sub units units.

 

[bushman13]

I hear you, but I think that is a product of not having much available public land in those states. All of the public land is bunched up in the western states. That makes it hard to prove out theories in either direction when it comes to a state with very little public land. My statement still holds true though, there is plenty of trophy hunting in non GMU states. And I do see your point and the necessity for GMU's may always exist for public lands and a low number animals like a sheep. But for deer and elk, give us some freedom back. I want to hunt and put meat on the table, not play point games.

Can you think of a state known for trophy whitetails where there are no GMUs and the hunts take place mostly on public land? I can't. Maybe Idaho?

 

[bushman13]

I moved to CO from GA, so I am still experiencing shock over the complexities.
In GA, the state is split in 2, southern and northern zones. Your deer license is good for both, the only real difference was you could bait in the southern zone and the season length may have been a little different.

Maybe we were spoiled as you can grab a rifle 365 days a year and head to the woods. I don't feel that freedom and accessibility out here. It takes some of the warmth away from hunting when you wait 10-20 years for a tag knowing there is no way a buddy or family member can hunt as well. Will your hunting buddy even be alive in 20 years? It's very coveted out here, just a different game I suppose.

Pretty sure every state has zones/GMUs/ districts/etc...

There are states that have general season tags that are good state wide/or for most of the state for specific species if that's what your referring, whether the state chooses to enforce quotas on specific areas doesn't mean they don't divide them into sub units units.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I moved to CO from GA, so I am still experiencing shock over the complexities.
In GA, the state is split in 2, southern and northern zones. Your deer license is good for both, the only real difference was you could bait in the southern zone and the season length may have been a little different.

Maybe we were spoiled as you can grab a rifle 365 days a year and head to the woods. I don't feel that freedom and accessibility out here. It takes some of the warmth away from hunting when you wait 10-20 years for a tag knowing there is no way a buddy or family member can hunt as well. Will your hunting buddy even be alive in 20 years? It's very coveted out here, just a different game I suppose.

Yeah as far as season length goes there is definitely a big difference, mostly. If your a 1 animal hunter I can see it seeming like a short season, but you can chase spring turkey, then archery elk, then bears and deer, then grab a late season tag, which gets you into waterfowl season, then predators... so really the only season you can't hunt is the summer and CO has some amazing fishing....

In terms of tag what are you waiting for/ putting in for? I'm a CO resident and have hunted deer and elk every season since I started hunting (2012), there are definitely hard to draw units, but only a handful. Most of the state can be drawn with 1pt or less, so you really should be in the woods with your family hunting elk and deer every season. Not sure if you watch meateater, but this seasons "Colorado Mule Deer" is a 0pt unit for NR, a bunch of fresh tracks CO episodes are in a 0pt unit for a NR, the point being their is a ton of opportunity in CO.

A lot of people get caught up on the trophy units and yes they do have great quality, but killing a huge animal in those units is hardly guaranteed. My bro-n-law, killed a much bigger bull in an OTC elk unit then he did in unit 10 (18pts for archery).

 

[Pelican]

But for deer and elk, give us some freedom back. I want to hunt and put meat on the table, not play point games.

Freedom is not coming back, just the way it works. That is why I am so resistant to limiting OTC elk opportunity here in CO. I lived in Utah for a few years where there is not much opportunity, it sucked, at least for me. I am fine with limited units if it is biologically required, but when people start proposing more limited bull elk units in CO I get concerned. When you go from being able to hunt bulls in much of western CO one year to realizing the only elk tag you can get the next year in UT is a spike tag, crowded OTC units in CO don’t seem all that bad.

 

[Trial153]

If there were no point schemes then life would be just unicorns and rainbows.

In all seriousness nothing is going to change even if we have all upfront fees and totally random draws unless we put some kind a hard cap on total applications in a multi state sense.