What happens when a mature billy is removed from an area?

[sacountry]

I've been doing a bunch of escouting these last 10 days. Managed to get my hands on some data about kill sites in my HD for the last 10 years. There is some indication of repetitive locations, nothing that's absolutely conclusive. My question is if a big Billy gets taken out, as it appears as though it was last year in one of the semi-repetitive locations, will another mature billy move in to the area, kinda like a deer? Or will it take several years for one of the kids to grow into that role? I'm still going to go back to this area to scout it, but I might spend less time there if the answer is that a kid is going to have to grow into the role.

 

[warmer]

I have no idea, but your question is one of the most interesting topics in a long time. Good luck on you're hunt!

 

[MO Betta]

That would be a good question for a biologist to answer, I'd love to hear a response on that.

 

[Irrelevant]

From what little I know, and I can't emphasize little enough, it's a bit of both. The repeat areas are probably really good goat habitat, so during the breeding season big mature billies may move in looking for nannies. But they also have there own territories and secure haunts. I talked to a couple of outfitters in the Goat Rocks here in WA that had two very large billies pegged in very remote difficult to access location the previous three seasons. They were all by themselves in places none of their clients could get to. They figured they'd just die of old age all alone.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think it depends. Rutting areas will be attracting mature billies into the nannies so late season spots will be repetitive.
Most goats that are harvested are not mature billies so I wouldn’t put a lot of stock into kill sites as a reliable indicator to kill a really big goat.

Some areas of kill concentration might be because of convenience for hunter access.

Although having said that I watched a good billy that was half a mile from the parking area in a popular wilderness unit. We ran into a tag holder that killed a 2 1/2 year old 6” billy about 6 1/2 miles in. He gave up because he didn’t see many goats.
My hunting partner drew a goat tag the next fall and killed that billy right where we had seen him. He made the B&C minimum.

 

[phutch30]

When I had my goat tag I was hunting in Nov and watched billies cruising the goat country rutting just like deer and elk. Find the nannies during the rut and you will find several different billies. Take one out and another will find the group. Like Gerald said some areas attract goats at certain times of the yr

 

[sacountry]

Here's what I got from a biologist..."So goats are slow to recolonize areas, which is one thing that prohibits population recovery. Billies typically disperse from their maternal herds when they are 2 and join small billy bands. So if one dies, it is filled in by the next in line in the hierarchy. Mountain goats have a very hierachical society.. especially the females.".

If I read between those lines, it might be that if a big Billie is taken out of a small herd, the next in line might be a few to several years younger. If the herd is larger, then it's plausible that the next in line could be a close second in age and size. All guesses on my part based upon the information. Gerald makes an excellent point about rutting areas.

 

[squirrel]

When the group of billies gets wiped out it will still be billie country later, Ive seen it but have no idea why other than maybe they had some transient billies that were not part of the group when they got blasted to oblivion. Or maybe it is just perfect for a bachelor hang out, I dunno.

I have also seen the huge single in his "chosen few acres" year to year upon his death it has remained vacant ever after (I am talking about his core 1-5 acres) his safe zone. His "couple cliffs and a patch of grass" with a snow drift for water.

I don't think you will find much more than anecdotal stories by people who enjoy goats. You may have to piece together your knowledge in snippets from a multitude of sources. Todays "kill them all" management makes it doubly hard to get a picture of mature goat behavior as so few reach that age under the best of circumstances without a hail of lead to dodge as well.

There is a reason that there is only one book to be read on them.

When only a partial massacre takes place the boys club will re-assemble fairly soon but in a new a "safe location" Not sure when they will go back to their core range but it will be their core the next summer. The core will be vacant for at least the next 6 weeks tho, they aint that dumb...

Fascinating critters enjoy your time with them.

 

[BuzzH]

Here's what I got from a biologist..."So goats are slow to recolonize areas, which is one thing that prohibits population recovery. Billies typically disperse from their maternal herds when they are 2 and join small billy bands. So if one dies, it is filled in by the next in line in the hierarchy. Mountain goats have a very hierachical society.. especially the females.".

If I read between those lines, it might be that if a big Billie is taken out of a small herd, the next in line might be a few to several years younger. If the herd is larger, then it's plausible that the next in line could be a close second in age and size. All guesses on my part based upon the information. Gerald makes an excellent point about rutting areas.

Here's a study that has a lot of information, specific to Montana.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/317098994_Status_of_Montana%27s_mountain_goats_A_synthesis_of_management_data_1960-2015_and_field_biologists%27_perspectives

As to your specific question...I cant speak to it, other than to say that Montana has been very, very aggressive with goat harvest in Montana, in particular the native herds. They have, at least in the past, been killing 5.5% or better of the native herds, which according to the science I've researched is wayyyyy too high. With populations of 50 or less maybe 1 goat every other year, populations of 50-100 maybe 1-2% of the total population...harvest should also be billies only.

 

[squirrel]

One additional point after re-reading your original question you use "big" and "Mature" somewhat interchangeably, they are not. Mature billies will often be in a group of up to 10 with a pecking order and social structure and would likely behave differently than "big", upon removal of the leader or one of his buddies.

Those big ol yellow guys are often (almost always) solo never have I seen more than 4 in a group and that only once (all were 10" +) It is difficult to even find a "big" goat even with the gov tag these days, they simply don't exist anymore, kinda sad really.