What are your thoughts on this?

[Tom]

You did keep it up, I did post a picture, it was big, and one did get up and trample a previous hunter after it was shot and went down. The rest of that statement is in error.

 

[shoots-straight]

You did keep it up, I did post a picture, it was big, and one did get up and trample a previous hunter after it was shot and went down. The rest of that statement is in error.

See now you feel better about yourself, eh Tommy.

 

[Moosie]

OK, I'll Answer what you asked me, it's time.

No, I've never hunter Elk and deer on a game ranch nor will I ever. Do I give a crap if others do ? Ahh, I'm more of a to each their own but don't feel the need. Unlike you, I don't let the panties get in a wad if someone wants to partake in somethnig that is legal even if I don't agree. Just because they do doesn't make them less of a hunter per-say in my eyes no makes them a lair.

I don't think it's right for me for Deer or Elk. That being said, I have hunted exotics and pigs, and I will again. If they shut down game farms for exotics it wouldn't bother me non-the-less, but as long as guys have them open in the off season I might partake.

Actually in Idaho I was the presidents of DHI (Deer Hunters of Idaho) for several years and we took a public stand against game farms. Surprised ?

But guys like you are so Chest Puff daddy that sometimes your comments make you look worse then Canned hunt ranchers and poachers.

Is killing a critter on a game farm hard ? NAHHHh.. could be, but not always. Is killing a special draw critter on wintering range hard... Nahhhhhhh...could be, but not always. But I like to hunt. Some hunts are hard and some are not, but they should all be fun. I make every hunt fun weather it's Fish in a bucket canned fishing trip or 1 deer in 10 million sq miles and never see one.

Next year, I'm off to Africa. S.A. is all enclosed. I don't care one bit. Some animals will be harder, some easier, all will be trophies and I will enjoy the experience. I'm going with a coupel friends and Both my Business partners for a Officers meeting .. Ones gunna hunt and the other won't kill anything. Too sad someone like you couldn't. Wouldn't spend a Dime to do it. Live life how you want and hunt where you want. We'll do the same.

But dumb ass statements like this below :

Go kill somthing on a game farm, post the pic's here, tell a @#)(# and bull story how big and dangerous this inbreed animal was and you'll feel better about your fat assed self.

.. makes me go on defending the way guys like Tom hunt. Because statements like that makes a guy look like you a Prick with a better then thou attitude. First off, Toms not Fat, and he doesn't lie about his hunts. I've hunted and seen guys post storys so far from the truth here on Hunttalk that hunt Public lands that if you found out the truth you'd think they were canned hunters That is the Exact point I was making up above about Guys like you and Washington hunter. You wanna sterio type ? Look in the mirror....I pegged you early on and you posted to prove me right. But better then you hunters like yourself don't see the reflection, they see a made up image. You can't even see that yet dis guys like Tom that don't.

And that why Real hunters like Me and others, would rather hunt with guys like Tom then guys like you... it's the attitude. And you don't even get it. Do you have a clue on the States Tom has hunted and the animals he's taken outside a fence ?

MtMiller has a good Sig. line :

If you stoop to name-calling, you are not winning

I have no problem matching my hunting resume' with anyone even though I've killed exotics behind the fence. It doesn't make me a Fat hunter nor Slob hunter. I've done sheep hunt(s), Back Country New Zealand Tahr and Chamois hunts, and Elk and deer hunts that would kill the average hunter. Hunted Canada, Alaska several times. Idaho, New Mexico, Colorado, Montana, Louisiana, California, and more states then I can remember several times a year. Watch the Elk section this fall for Do-it-yoursef Big Arse Elk dieing in several different states and deer as well.

Remember, just because I replied to you finally doesn't mean you struck a nerve. I just thought it was time to answer. Funny how we can agree yet react to our fellow hunters so differently. Carry on with the name calling and be littleing guys that don't deserve it. Next your going to argue with the Bear Baiters and guys that fish with barbed hooks. Then it's compound bows. I see no end. Is it guys that hunt behind the fence that ruin hunters ? Or the guys talking about them.

I've seen the same with a local Film producer here in Boise that has made some successfull films. Everyone talked about the unit he was filming and how He ruined it. Yet he never said in his films what unit it was..... It was all the Trap Yackers.

 

[Bambistew]

SS you could be right, and I might be wrong... I was getting some miss information.

 

[shoots-straight]

But dumb ass statements like this below :

But dumb ass statements like this below :

Quote:
Go kill somthing on a game farm, post the pic's here, tell a @#)(# and bull story how big and dangerous this inbreed animal was and you'll feel better about your fat assed self.

First off Moosie Tom through the jab of name calling at me first:

You are one ignorant and arrogant son of a bitch, keep it up.

And that why Real hunters like Me and others, would rather hunt with guys like Tom then guys like you... it's the attitude.

I don't think I've slammed Tom as bad as you just did.As far as guys like you or anybody else hunting with me, hunting's not a social event for me, it's way more personal than that.

I believe strongly that game farms, high fence, ect. are the biggest threat to huntingthat we have to deal with, I'm not going into all the reason's but face it, it's a hugh threat and if my chest's puffed out it's because, in my heart I can see the threat. I try to reason with those that are on the other side, your better off exsposing them, so the other 80% that hasn't made up it's mind yet will. As far as looking worse than the game farmer, sorry nice try! It's like trying to reason with a PETA member, or a Greenpeace member, good luck.

I know you've hunted with Tom, and used game farms, and will again. South Africa is mostly game farms, your right, I have no desire to hunt a animal that's doesn't have a chance to escape. Free range for me, and your right to each his own. Just don't toot your horn about what a great hunt it was and what a worthy trohpy it is, just say it like it is. Nice livestock. Thing is some guys aren't willing to spend 3 weeks working a whitetail buck that they may or maynot get a chance at, or hunting a wilderness area, packing in 10 miles seting camp, hunting daylight to dark for a week without any garantee of seeing a elk let alone killing one. I see the reason people pay to kill livestock on these operations. It belittles the guy that got a real trophy the hard way, the right way.

Next your going to argue with the Bear Baiters and guys that fish with barbed hooks. Then it's compound bows. I see no end. Is it guys that hunt behind the fence that ruin hunters ? Or the guys talking about them.

You say you've had me pegged from the get go, well if you've read my posts you'd have known that I bait bears, hunt with a compound, and fish with barbed hooks. Is the guys that hunt game farms a threat to hunting? Yes, I believe strongly that these guys need to hunt wild free range animals. Without guys using the services of game farms there will be none.

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

 

[Tom]

I don't get the argument where it belittles some hard backpack hunt if some other hunt was easier. The backpack hunt stands on its own.

There are many different kinds of legal hunts in the world and I'm glad for all of them.

If someone shot a P&Y animal with 40% lettoff in 1985 say, what do they do, if he submits it now?

Do they follow the old rule, where back then you could not use 40% lettoff and be in P&Y, or do they follow the new rule, because its entered now and you can use greater than 35% lettoff?

Before and after makes a difference, with a new rule you know, like the high fence rule.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

"South Africa is mostly game farms."

First - have you been there? How do you know that?

Second - what is a game farm? Does simply having a fence make it a game farm, or is it having animals brought in? It's like saying, as posted in an article on another thread here, that the hunting industry is opposed to eliminating canned hunts. Huh? Generalities, broad brush labeling, etc.

I agree with Moosie - I'd much rather hunt with a person like Tom, who is open-minded and fairly easy-going, than with a holier-than-thou, judgmental jerk.

 

[Moosie]

It belittles the guy that got a real trophy the hard way, the right way.

It's like trying to reason with a PETA member, or a Greenpeace member, good luck.

Yep, exactly remind me what a "trophy" is again ? does it have to make B&C ?

Rather mirthful how you worry about someone else who kills an animal behind a fence to make your hunt less meaningful? How someone else’s hunt belittles your hunt?

Come on, argue the points of chronic waste or harming the animals in transport, etc. But crying about someone else shooting a critter in a pen or a 10k ranch and how it take away from your manly man backpack hunt makes you look like a baby…….

Baiting bears, OMG !!!!!

 

[Tom]

High fences are in a lot of states and in a lot of countries and have a lot of species in them and have been around a lot of centuries.

I think the attacks on them are inspired by the anti's more than something inherently wrong with them.

They can be a great way to give animals a fine life, until we shoot them and eat them and make memories and art pieces from their body parts.

 

[AkBearHunter]

I see high fenced hunting as a plus for hunting, to a certain degree anyways, especially for those that are handicapped and are not very mobile. I would be devistated if something happened to me and I couldn't hunt anymore. To each his own is what I say, your not the one that has to live with someone elses choice of hunting on a game ranch or fenced area. This kind of BS is the stuff that will tear apart hunting, we either stick together on this or we sink like the Titanic.

 

[BuzzH]

I dont agree with the last post.

Game farms have caused ALL hunters problems...at least in Montana. The MTFWP has to administer those damn things until they all disappear. The administration costs were/are funded by hunters and fishermen.

Plus the costs associated with monitoring and taking care of ranches that have chronic wasting disease problems.

I dont want my license dollars spent to monitor and make sure some slack-jawed yocal can raise elk. Thats one of the main reason MT banned all shooting operations in MT and basically forced most of the elk farms out of business.

I also totally disagree that ALL hunters must stick together...thats just not going to happen. I will not defend the actions and choices made by many, many, many hunters...even if they are "legal". I DO NOT want to be lumped in with them either.

 

[Curly]

Well said Buzz.

Even if one believed that "all hunters should stick together" why should we all stick together on the side of game farms? Maybe the game farm guys should come over to the other side if they think we should all stick together. But like Buzz says, that isn't going to happen.

I believe game farms should stay in places like Texas. Montana still has a lot of public land available and game for people to hunt. There is no reason to go shoot animals inside a fence in Montana.

 

[shoots-straight]

Yep, exactly remind me what a "trophy" is again ? does it have to make B&C ?

We're talking about the Books here and you know it. I agree that any fair chase animal that is taken could be considered a trophy.

Rather mirthful how you worry about someone else who kills an animal behind a fence to make your hunt less meaningful? How someone else’s hunt belittles your hunt?

Ok Moosie, you know exactly what I'm saying and your trying to somehow make an arguement out of a technical piece of the post. I'll make easy for you if you didn't get what was said, (which I know you did).

Lets say hypothetically that all animals in the Books were taken by fair chase methods..Ok this kid gets this old rack out of the shed, it scores a whopping 540 (a elk shot on a game farm this year, and tried passing as shot in the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness). Takes it to scorers and it makes book, they sign the affadavid that it was fair chase. All others put in the book legitamately are dishonared by this act.

If someone shot a P&Y animal with 40% lettoff in 1985 say, what do they do, if he submits it now?

Tom, I believe any animal shot with 40% lettoff would be legal to make the book, It was moved to 60% letoff a while back, I think that's where it still is.

South Africa is mostly game farms."

Yes! No I haven't been, and unless they have fair chase I wont. I know of 20 or better friends and aquaintances that went there, everyone told the same tale. "Well they let the animals into this enclosure that was at least 6000 acres so it was really hunting." Funy thing about the hunts there, no one ever came home without a animal they wern't after, except one fella that was after a cape Buffalo,with a long bow, it seems that they have a problem with a fella sneaking within 40 yrds or somthing.

I agree with Moosie - I'd much rather hunt with a person like Tom, who is open-minded and fairly easy-going, than with a holier-than-thou, judgmental jerk.

Your not invited.

I see high fenced hunting as a plus for hunting, to a certain degree anyways, especially for those that are handicapped and are not very mobile.

I already answered this, reread the thread.

This kind of BS is the stuff that will tear apart hunting, we either stick together on this or we sink like the Titanic.

This is the threat, you need to realize that, this is public enemy #1 for all hunters and hunting in general. At the minimum the people that use the services of game farms should not try and hide the fact, it wouldn't be such a issue. Say it like it is! If you hunt a game farm don't try to pass it off as somthing other than that.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Funy thing about the hunts there, no one ever came home without a animal they wern't after,

Huh? And you say Tom is confusing?

Do you mean that no one came without an animal they wanted? I wanted a gemsbok, and came home without one, despite spending several days tracking them. The ones we saw were too young, too small or female. But that is hunting, isn't it?

I passed on a lot of game that I didn't want - nyala, duikers, steenbok, blesbok, zebra and even cape buffalo.

Or do you mean that so one came home with an animal that they weren't looking for? I got a red hartebeest, that I wasn't particularly interested in, but it was a very good bull so I decided to take him.

None of the animals we shot in South Africa were placed there - they were all native to the area and born wild there. Your friends and acquantances must be pretty foolish to have booked that kind of hunt without researching it, and more so for staying.

So you base a decision about an entire country upon hearsay? There is plenty of reliable information available about options in hunting RSA on the web. Your conclusion about South Africa is like basing a decision about hunting in America based upon a game farm in Kansas selling elk or red deer hunts.

 

[shoots-straight]

Huh? And you say Tom is confusing?

Do you mean that no one came without an animal they wanted? I wanted a gemsbok, and came home without one, despite spending several days tracking them. The ones we saw were too young, too small or female. But that is hunting, isn't it?

It seems it wasn't as confusing as you first thought! Cali, I'm interested in hunting South Africa, but it has to be free range, and fair chase. You could either e-mail me a list of operations that cater to hunters looking for this kind of hunt, or post some here. That way I can check them out and contact them for myself.

 

[elkfarmer]

what was this topic about again?

 

[Tom]

Its about how Greenhorn thinks all these guys posting here are gay or that the cat is gay? Anyway, that was his thoughts on the topic, what do we think of the leopard hunt add, that's the main topic.

I agree about that cost issue in Montana, I would have voted for an high fence ranch liscense to cover those costs, could I have ever voted on that.
In Texas, we have a $45 5 day liscense for exotic hunts. I thought they, the elk ranchers, pay some kind of tax for the elk, doesn't that help manage them? I remember reading about bills on that. The $45 liscense here is over the counter and it has unlimited tags, i.e. no tags, and it goes to TX Parks and Wildlife, so it helps them manage that exotic part of the wildlife here. A lot of them are in a high fence, but whitetail are also.

I can't believe someone thinks a high fence would hold a leopard. I think they would go in and out, as they liked. So, one could be shot inside the fence when it was in or it could be shot outside the fence when it was out.

 

[elkfarmer]

Tom, I knew what it was about. LOL. It just seemed to have gotton off topic.

My feeling is, if its legal then why not. Just because "you" don't agree with it doesn't really matter. You have the choice to do it or not.


You want to pissed about something. Be pissed that we pay $3.15 per gallon of gas while some Arab countries pay 17 cents per gallon.

 

[Tom]

That's what I figured. I'm just happy I can pay the $3.15 per gallon, except its $2.83 here right now.

This is what set me over the edge with that one post. It says right in Chuck Adams biography, Life at Full Draw, that he has 3 high fence animals in Pope and Young that are still there from before they changed the high fence rule. Probably other less famous people do also. You'd think a guy would check that out, rather than say its bs. Anybody that can read will figure it out, if they want too.

Like if someone shot a P&Y animal before they changed the law in AK that you can't hunt the day you land on a non-scheduled flight, it would have been P&Y back then. It would not now though as its against the law to hunt that day now. They don't go take out all the old ones that were put in under the old law, right?