West coast salmon recovery

[Irrelevant]

Out state biologists did studies on the size and strength of outmigrating smolt showing that they were not growing up like they should be. 25% smaller. Suggesting that there isn't enough nutrients in the water.
I guess I would have push back in believing that the if habitats where they are born and start out there lives don't have the food and proper growing conditions such as water temperature or levels. When they migrate and are runts they are going to have a tougher time surviving than an outmigrating smolt of proper size.
And mostly because we can probably do more to help on land. But again just part of the problem. And just my thoughts. And I am also very concerned about the future of our salmon fisheries to survive, we're all in this together

Right, but my counter to that would be the main source of nutrients in our freestone rivers, on the west coast, are the salmon themselves. Their rotting corpses feed a plethora of aquatic bug life, which in turn feed our par and smolts. It's not that the actual habitat has degraded. There aren't less trees in the Olympic National Park.

I feel like this intellectual impasse, where all of our salmon whoas are placed on freshwater habitat has three main sources.
1. Freshwater habitat is about the only thing we have any knowledge of. We can't or don't study the saltwater environment.
2. "Fixing" freshwater habitat is easy, therefore we gravitate towards it as a solution. Even large scale dam removal is far easier simply because it's a direct action that can be taken.
3. Most mainstream conservationists and environmentalist involved in salmon recovery simply don't have enough humility to admit when their actions and policies aren't working. I know several very well, and to admit that more large woody debris isn't the answer is akin to hating the environment. That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

 

[Akcabin]

Yeah I believe that we can have reasonable resource development and have healthy fisheries. Our lives depend on it.
As per the cycle of life, alter one component n you got them all. Also believe we can have successful commercial, sport n subsistence fisheries if they could actually try n listen to each others concerns n work together better. Instead of trying to sue in court to try n grab their fair share or all they can.
The ak seafood marketing association has boasted record numbers of catches. Although our fisherfolks don't seem to be getting extra n life can get tough. Us sports folks are not being successful n folks quit buying licenses n gear. Billions of dollars lost for research. Subsistence fisheries facing more emergency closures. And we know that species such as salmon are declining at record numbers and emergency closures around the state. Just when do these numbers cross. I'm kinda thinking we're here. And we all best start to believe that no one has all the answers. And best to figure it out without the government involved.
Thanks for the interesting conversation

 

[Irrelevant]

Not going with the flow: salmon ‘sue’ US city over harm to population

The lawsuit brought on behalf of the salmon says that river damming infringes on the fish’s ‘inherent right to exist’

www.theguardian.com

I get that dams can't be good. But supporters have to stop thinking that taking them out will "solve" the problem. We're currently in the middle of the negotiating process for the next round of regulations, a process that establishes the quotas for commercial, recreation, and tribal, in OR and WA. I'll bet my left nut that tribe isn't pushing for a reduced tribal "take". We are just greedy creatures, take, take, take, then blame someone else.

 

[Salmonchaser]

pretty clear their are literally hundreds of systems without damns that are loosing their salmon, dams are a red herring, relatively speaking.

 

[Irrelevant]

New data could help scientists worldwide studying fish passage through dams

Fish researchers worldwide now have an inexpensive and effective way to study fish passage dams. That’s because Northwest researchers are releasing reams of data to broaden the understanding of fish behavior at dams in the Northwest.

www.opb.org

I was at a symposium a couple of years ago where an engineer from the PNNL presented the results of a bypass study that showed an extremely high survival rate around the dams. Not the slack waters between, but just the dams themselves. His presentation was not well received, but it was fairly impressive how "scientific" the did the assessment. It was pretty hard to argue they made a mistake in the analysis.

 

[Salmonchaser]

Boy I hate it when the science doesn’t support what I think I know.

 

[Goodfish]

Certainly the dams without fish ladders are a gimme for bad anadromous fish management and not even trying i.e Grand Coulee and Hells Canyon dam and similar. The only reason there is much of a chinook or steelhead fishery in the Columbia or Snake are the hatcheries to mitigate those dams. The exception might be the sockeye from Neffa3’s backyard although I’m not sure if the Canadians are augmenting them or not. Like the Bristol Bay sockeye they may just have a better location on the high seas where they grow up. Removing the Elwha River dams on the Olympic Peninsula has been fascinating to watch but I think that the slow recovery is emphasizing the point that the big issue at this moment is happening at sea. I have a lot of hope that the high seas science going on this spring with Canada might start shedding some unbiased information. Given the population increase on the West Coast and the worldwide demand for seafood, the outlook for sustainable fishing seasons without augmentation looks grim.

 

[devon deer]

We have a dam on the main river I fish, it doesn't have a fish pass/ladder, the reason, when it was constructed in 1930 it was built on one leg of our river, the other leg was unobstructed, so if the salmon take the wrong turn the short section to the dam was not really an issue, but in any case it has had plenty of salmon spawning improvements done to it.

Its a very complex problem and taken as a whole I believe dams only have a small part in this huge issue.

Good news is our season started on 1st of February, they will soon be on my section, but I'm more interested in the Sea Trout!

Cheers

Richard

 

[AlaskaHunter]

In Alaska, Chinook (King Salmon) and Chums (Dog Salmon) runs have declined substantially
while smaller body pinks (humpies) and reds (sockeyes) runs have been strong.

Statewide, Chinook runs have been below the long term average every year since 2005,
with recent years record low runs in many drainages.

Bristol Bay’s 2021 sockeye run is the largest on record: 63.2 million fish have returned to the bay this year, breaking the 2018 record of 62.9 million.

 

[chilidog61]

There have been some great suggestions here and it is nice to to see so many people concerned with the salmon populations. Like many of you have pointed out, there are many factors or variables that contribute to the success or decline of a population. It is usually a complex interaction of a suite of influencers (e.g., habitat, harvest of many types, water quality, connectivity....). One thing I would like to mention is that many people have pointed to the ineffectiveness of habitat restoration or limited improvement to salmon populations. Many times habitat improvements are the only things these agencies can control at that time. There is no doubt in my mind that these agencies understand bigger problems. The only way to start to attack those problems is that they need to change public viewpoints and political thinking (sadly too much politics plays into almost all fish and wildlife management). Even if they can get the support, there are usually numerous court battles that follow but they must start there. Being active and talking to the public and state/federal legislations is where it starts. Once the viewpoints in the politics start to change, the agencies that manage these populations will have the power to make changes too. It's a long process but it can work.

 

[phutch30]

Salmon are a classic case of death by a thousand cuts. We cant restore them with one quick fix. Removing the dams will help, but not fix the issue, habitat improvements will help, but not enough to fix it etc. However, if we can heal 900 of those 1000 cuts we would would succeed. We have reached the point where the little things arnt going to do enough in the time we have. We need to look at bigger actions the bring about cumulative results. Dam removal is one of them. To date all the removals on the West coast have show pretty significant and rapid improvements. Reducing (not eliminate) commercial harvest and bycatch would also have a significant impact. One of the biggest factors we have to contend with is the fluctuating ocean conditions that seem to run on 10-15yr cycles.

 

[Irrelevant]

There have been some great suggestions here and it is nice to to see so many people concerned with the salmon populations. Like many of you have pointed out, there are many factors or variables that contribute to the success or decline of a population. It is usually a complex interaction of a suite of influencers (e.g., habitat, harvest of many types, water quality, connectivity....). One thing I would like to mention is that many people have pointed to the ineffectiveness of habitat restoration or limited improvement to salmon populations. Many times habitat improvements are the only things these agencies can control at that time. There is no doubt in my mind that these agencies understand bigger problems. The only way to start to attack those problems is that they need to change public viewpoints and political thinking (sadly too much politics plays into almost all fish and wildlife management). Even if they can get the support, there are usually numerous court battles that follow but they must start there. Being active and talking to the public and state/federal legislations is where it starts. Once the viewpoints in the politics start to change, the agencies that manage these populations will have the power to make changes too. It's a long process but it can work.

If you talk to the environmentally conscious western washington citizenry and ask them what is wrong with our salmon populations, you will predominantly hear, "Loss of habitat/Habitat degradation". They're not picking that up themselves, they're being spoon fed that line from our experts, both State and non-profit. The their kids go to college for wildlife biology and come out thinking that we just need a few more habitat projects.

For what it's worth the biggest "wins" for salmon that I can think of have all been due to legal pressure by the tribes and WA State Supreme Court decisions. Even if they're (tribes) still just as much to blame in some regards for hammering sensitive stocks and demanding their take.

 

[Irrelevant]

For decades, dams have kept salmon out of the Spokane River. Now, tribes are studying how to bring the fish back

Members of the Coeur d'Alene tribe released more than 500 chinook into Hangman Creek on Wednesday. The release is part of a study that will assess the feasibility of reintroducing chinook into the Upper Columbia River.

www.spokesman.com

 

[Perlodid]

The need to see a bigger picture to understand the ups and downs of Pacific salmon abundances

We need international research teams and we need to carry out complete life cycle studies to understand how ocean and climate variability affect Pacific salmon abundances. There are ample numbers of very qualified researchers in all salmon producing countries. These researchers mostly know each other and generally get along quite well internationally. There is a history of effective communications coordinated by organizations such as the five-country North Pacific Anadromous Fish Commission or the International Pacific salmon Commission representing Canada and the Unites States. These are examples of coordinated international organizations that study Pacific salmon, but almost all Pacific salmon research is national. I propose that there needs to be international agreements that identify research topics related to major issues regulating Pacific salmon production that will be funded and assigned to international teams of researchers. Existing organizations such as the North Pacific Anadromous Fish Commission could coordinate the administration of the research. A particular topic could be identified and offered to open competition. The international team with the best proposal would receive the financial support and members would receive national encouragement. My guess is that the costs would be a small fraction of what is currently spent by all countries on Pacific salmon research.

Thoughts? Seems particularly relevant to the discussion here. The logistics and feasibility of large-scale international ocean studies as proposed are a bit beyond me to say the least, but I can't help but feel this is the most logical step forward.

 

[Irrelevant]

The need to see a bigger picture to understand the ups and downs of Pacific salmon abundances



Thoughts? Seems particularly relevant to the discussion here. The logistics and feasibility of large-scale international ocean studies as proposed are a bit beyond me to say the least, but I can't help but feel this is the most logical step forward.

it certainly wouldn't hurt. I also read this one that is only sorta related. But the gist is that we are allowing commercial fisheries to basically have their way, and treat our salmon like the bison or passenger pigeon, with very little oversight or regulations. And if WE'RE doing that, what's happening in international waters?

Skeena Steelhead - FFI Magazine

ffimagazine.com

 

[Mica Man]

For decades, dams have kept salmon out of the Spokane River. Now, tribes are studying how to bring the fish back

Members of the Coeur d'Alene tribe released more than 500 chinook into Hangman Creek on Wednesday. The release is part of a study that will assess the feasibility of reintroducing chinook into the Upper Columbia River.

www.spokesman.com

My brother and I spoke with a tribal member this past October when pheasant hunting along Hangman Creek. He told us they have been releasing salmon into the creek in hopes they might return. I'm sure they feel they need to do something but damn, Hangman creek is hardly suitable habitat for shiners.

 

[Irrelevant]

My brother and I spoke with a tribal member this past October when pheasant hunting along Hangman Creek. He told us they have been releasing salmon into the creek in hopes they might return. I'm sure they feel they need to do something but damn, Hangman creek is hardly suitable habitat for shiners.

there are certainly reaches where it has to cook temp wise, but you'd be pretty surprised at the creeks around Seattle that have salmon, truly industrial waste lands. Heck in elementary school we participated in Salmon in the Classroom, a program with WDFW where each class raised a couple dozen coho eggs then released them into a very small "crik" that went through/under a lumber mill, enclosed in a pipe over 100 yards in length. The entire accessible reach was less than a mile long. And yet coho came back every year.


To some degree there has to be hope just because how resilient salmon are.

 

[Goodfish]

there are certainly reaches where it has to cook temp wise, but you'd be pretty surprised at the creeks around Seattle that have salmon, truly industrial waste lands. Heck in elementary school we participated in Salmon in the Classroom, a program with WDFW where each class raised a couple dozen coho eggs then released them into a very small "crik" that went through/under a lumber mill, enclosed in a pipe over 100 yards in length. The entire accessible reach was less than a mile long. And yet coho came back every year.
View attachment 216464

To some degree there has to be hope just because how resilient salmon are.

I agree there has to be hope. I hope we are at the bottom of this situation and not looking at extinction. Id like to see a 100% closure for a couple chinook salmon life cycles—6-8 years. If the issue is the high seas rearing conditions then not much will change until nature does.
The challenge of having Alaska, Canada, Washington and Oregon fish stocks all intermingled is huge. Then add in tribal, commercial, Ocean sports fishing, Interception fisheries, and River sports fishing interests. Add in nature, spawning area depletion, spawning area pollution, dams, high seas temperature/ rearing issues, bird predation, other fish species predation, commercial bait fishing, krill fishing, and pinniped over abundance. Then add in the poachers, high seas drift netters and American and foreign trawlers taking out “legal” bycatch. Did I miss anything!? It’s tough to be a salmon!
We are stuck in this situation of everyone blaming everyone else but themselves. Even the catch and release guys are killing an amount of fish. I am in the mode of supporting anything that might help.

 

[Hydrophilic]

It’s tough to be a salmon! (And steelhead)
We are stuck in this situation of everyone blaming everyone else but themselves. Even the catch and release guys are killing an amount of fish. I am in the mode of supporting anything that might help.

Well said and yes it is. I was out fishing yesterday and sat down to watch this guy for 10 minutes. Pretty crazy what they go through just to return to their home river for a chance to spawn. The stories this fish could tell…

 

[Brittany Chukarman]

This is a good read. Success but it took time and cooperation.

The Garcia: A River in Strong Recovery After a 30-Year Effort | Trees Foundation

By Craig Bell The strong recovery we are witnessing today in the Garcia River is thanks to a 30-year effort that began in 1991 when Mendocino County Supervisors approved the Garcia River Watershed Enhancement Plan (GRWEP, Caldon, Monschke, Higgins 1991). The GRWEP was the first watershed plan in...

treesfoundation.org