West coast salmon recovery

[Irrelevant]

The Canadians gave up and started stocking the hell out of the sockeye lakes on the Okanogan system. That is the huge source of sockeye coming up the Columbia as far as Brewster. Similarly the reason there are larger fishable salmon and steelhead populations in the Snake system are the Federally mandated hatcheries that were put in place in penance for not installing fish ladders on the Hells Canyon dams.

True. But has nothing to do with the 84k that ran up to Lake Wenatchee this year

 

[Salmonchaser]

True. But has nothing to do with the 84k that ran up to Lake Wenatchee this year

From my perspective we F it up something horrible, can’t seem to correct the problem, they’re not sitting on their hands waiting, they are recruiting fisheries people getting some work done and we are seeing fish on some streams that haven’t had any in generations. Much of it may be anecdotal in NE Oregon, getting beyond Brewster is going to be a huge problem on that end of things, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Goodfish]

From my perspective we F it up something horrible, can’t seem to correct the problem, they’re not sitting on their hands waiting, they are recruiting fisheries people getting some work done and we are seeing fish on some streams that haven’t had any in generations. Much of it may be anecdotal in NE Oregon, getting beyond Brewster is going to be a huge problem on that end of things, it’ll be interesting to see what happens.

That’s where I would spend the $200M. A permanent fish passage opens up hundreds of miles more water and spawning potential. Same at the two Hells Canyon blockades.

 

[Goodfish]

Some nice detail and perspective on the challenges of the Hell‘s Canyon Complex.

Tearing down dams could save Western rivers — and also make climate change worse — Los Angeles Times

One of America's reddest states is seeking 100% clean energy. But does hydropower count as clean?

apple.news

 

[Irrelevant]

Fire retardant has killed thousands of fish in the Pacific Northwest, including endangered salmon species

With wildfire seasons getting longer and hotter, the U.S. Forest Service says dropping fire retardant is a key tool, but the red chemical is lethal to aquatic life.

www.king5.com

 

[SO7mm]

Fire retardant has killed thousands of fish in the Pacific Northwest, including endangered salmon species

With wildfire seasons getting longer and hotter, the U.S. Forest Service says dropping fire retardant is a key tool, but the red chemical is lethal to aquatic life.

www.king5.com

I wonder what happens to all of the retardant that actually hits the mark during the next rain.

 

[Irrelevant]

I wonder what happens to all of the retardant that actually hits the mark during the next rain.

Or every rain thereafter...

 

[R.K.]

I wonder what happens to all of the retardant that actually hits the mark during the next rain.

Ammonium phosphate? It’s fertilizer. Decent amount is absorbed into the dirt. Being dumped directly on water limits that, though.

 

[Irrelevant]

This is what I've been expecting for years.

Road Hazard: Evidence Mounts on Toxic Pollution from Tires

Researchers are only beginning to uncover the toxic cocktail of chemicals, microplastics, and heavy metals hidden in car and truck tires. But experts say these tire emissions are a significant source of air and water pollution and may be affecting humans as well as wildlife.

e360.yale.edu

Someone is finally suing tire manufacturers.

 

[Goodfish]

Ammonium phosphate? It’s fertilizer. Decent amount is absorbed into the dirt. Being dumped directly on water limits that, though.

Ya I’m curious about the biology on the fish kills. Is it the ammonium phosphate or is it causing algal blooms or something that uses up the oxygen? Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don’t! A burned out creek bottom silts in and has no shade and that’s rough on the fish too.

 

[R.K.]

Ya I’m curious about the biology on the fish kills. Is it the ammonium phosphate or is it causing algal blooms or something that uses up the oxygen? Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don’t! A burned out creek bottom silts in and has no shade and that’s rough on the fish too.

Direct hit to the water causes toxicity that would most certainly kill aquatic wildlife.

 

[Goodfish]

Direct hit to the water causes toxicity that would most certainly kill aquatic wildlife.

It makes you wonder about the reality of it when they talk about the EPA getting involved. I’ve seen fires that look like Prometheus and the end of time with 150 foot flames coming down the hill faster than a man can run. Is anyone really going to stop suppression when houses and lives are in danger vs. fish? I suspect anyone who owns a home would vote for a retardant drop. I think it is noise in the big picture. Certainly in some situations letting things burn is beneficial. If it’s my house on the line, please put it out and you‘ll have free steaks and whisky for life! I love all things fish but this one is a little complicated!

 

[SAJ-99]

It makes you wonder about the reality of it when they talk about the EPA getting involved. I’ve seen fires that look like Prometheus and the end of time with 150 foot flames coming down the hill faster than a man can run. Is anyone really going to stop suppression when houses and lives are in danger vs. fish? I suspect anyone who owns a home would vote for a retardant drop. I think it is noise in the big picture. Certainly in some situations letting things burn is beneficial. If it’s my house on the line, please put it out and you‘ll have free steaks and whisky for life! I love all things fish but this one is a little complicated!

But that is the literal choice- allow something that protects my home but is negative to the surrounding environment. Tragedy of the commons in full display.

 

[BuzzH]

But that is the literal choice- allow something that protects my home but is negative to the surrounding environment. Tragedy of the commons in full display.

Doesn't have to be. People living in the sticks should have their shit together regarding defensible space, fuel reduction, and building smartly. Also, they should give things more than a casual thought before considering building out in the woods.

I fought fire for 7 years and I saw enough to be convinced that building out in the woods was at best, a pretty poor idea. It's all fine until it's not. Things have only gotten worse since then.

I think one thing to stop the expansion into some of the worse places to build for fire dangers, is for insurance companies to just stop issuing policies in such high risk areas.

I get it that people dream of living out, but maybe they should think of the consequences and risks to themselves, others, and the environment before they do.

 

[Akcabin]

We have a remote cabin. I am aware that if there is a forest fire I might loose it. Goes with the territory. I certainly don't want or need the insurance companies or government to protect me or my property. Or expect it. Because there might be a forest fire and maybe fire retardant may be used. I do not need more laws or rules to protect me or myself property. And fwiw we've lost a home to forest fire and I worked as a forest fire fighter when younger.

 

[SAJ-99]

Doesn't have to be. People living in the sticks should have their shit together regarding defensible space, fuel reduction, and building smartly. Also, they should give things more than a casual thought before considering building out in the woods.

I fought fire for 7 years and I saw enough to be convinced that building out in the woods was at best, a pretty poor idea. It's all fine until it's not. Things have only gotten worse since then.

I think one thing to stop the expansion into some of the worse places to build for fire dangers, is for insurance companies to just stop issuing policies in such high risk areas.

I get it that people dream of living out, but maybe they should think of the consequences and risks to themselves, others, and the environment before they do.

Unfortunately I think it is a pipe-dream to think market pricing will solve the problem, but apparently we will see. Insurance cos have stopped writing policies in some states and have substantially increased the cost in others. Add in a housing shortage and this is a recipe for continued disasters. I think what happens is people just stop paying for insurance. I'm doubt they stop asking the government to bail them out. And if there is a fire, they will still prioritize people and property, so there will still have a negative impact on fisheries.

We have a remote cabin. I am aware that if there is a forest fire I might loose it.

Remote cabins are one thing. It is estimated that half of the housing in the state of Colorado is in a high-risk area for wildfires.

 

[FI460]

Unfortunately I think it is a pipe-dream to think market pricing will solve the problem, but apparently we will see. Insurance cos have stopped writing policies in some states and have substantially increased the cost in others. Add in a housing shortage and this is a recipe for continued disasters. I think what happens is people just stop paying for insurance. I'm doubt they stop asking the government to bail them out. And if there is a fire, they will still prioritize people and property, so there will still have a negative impact on fisheries.



Remote cabins are one thing. It is estimated that half of the housing in the state of Colorado is in a high-risk area for wildfires.

Multiple families back home got dropped by their insurance a few years back and couldn't afford the state plan. They lost everything in the McKinney fire last year and are living in travel trailers now. They'll never be able to rebuild.

These rural properties are considerably more affordable as well. In Southern oregon you get a 3/2 with 2 acres for $600k. Go 45 minutes out of town and you can get a similar place for $350k.

That first 3/2 on the valley floor also almost burned in 2020 during the Almeda fire. Hardly a place that's truly safe in the west.

 

[Irrelevant]

Two studies (attached) from the Elwha River that document steelhead occurrence since dam removal.

 

[Goodfish]

Two studies (attached) from the Elwha River that document steelhead occurrence since dam removal.
View attachment 300008
View attachment 300009

That’s encouraging. Slow and steady but increasing even with unfavorable ocean conditions. Hopefully It continues and restores a sustainable fishery some day.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Doesn't have to be. People living in the sticks should have their shit together regarding defensible space, fuel reduction, and building smartly. Also, they should give things more than a casual thought before considering building out in the woods.

I fought fire for 7 years and I saw enough to be convinced that building out in the woods was at best, a pretty poor idea. It's all fine until it's not. Things have only gotten worse since then.

I think one thing to stop the expansion into some of the worse places to build for fire dangers, is for insurance companies to just stop issuing policies in such high risk areas.

I get it that people dream of living out, but maybe they should think of the consequences and risks to themselves, others, and the environment before they do.

Florida.