Well, here it goes.

[Sytes]

I guess my mind was thinking about a perso letting their dogs out at night to run free. (Many do)
I didn't mean frustration over dogs are not welcome on our public lands. As long as their under voice control I have no problems.. I've run many a cat with hounds so getty up.

And you developed your comment in response to my post with this in mind? Your presumption is a bit of a put off for someone in opposition of ridiculous initiatives.
The crux of my point...

Trappers so darn defensive to presume adverse opinions of hunters / outdoorsmen/women who own dogs and enjoy the outdoors is equal if not worse than to your own frustration over being lumped in w/ the crappy "trappers". Break us away and more of your base support goes elsewhere.

Give some distance from common recreational activities... reasonable distance as commented by the trappers association in the article linked in my prior post and you will gain a stronger support base... much stronger than your presumption/ push off in response to my post.

 

[shoots-straight]

And you developed your comment in response to my post with this in mind? Your presumption is a bit of a put off for someone in opposition of ridiculous initiatives.
The crux of my point...

Trappers so darn defensive to presume adverse opinions of hunters / outdoorsmen/women who own dogs and enjoy the outdoors is equal if not worse than to your own frustration over being lumped in w/ the crappy "trappers". Break us away and more of your base support goes elsewhere.

Give some distance from common recreational activities... reasonable distance as commented by the trappers association in the article linked in my prior post and you will gain a stronger support base... much stronger than your presumption/ push off in response to my post.

No, I developed my opinion from the largest percentage of dogs that get caught in traps. Their mostly on private property (something that won't change if this passed) and they are allowed to run wild and free. Had nothing to do with a presumption of how your dogs are taken care of. If you don't let that happen you have nothing to worry about.

You wanted trappers to mark their traps so dog owners could stay away from tapped areas. Private lands (where most of the dogs are caught) would not be effected by this bill. So your concerns aren't all that large.

If this passed private lands will be next.

Your post was vague on where you were worried this could happen or how..

 

[shoots-straight]

There's also a split amongst the anti trapping community. Anja Hyster (sp) the German immigrant that moved here and started "Footloose" wanted their mission statement to continue to work to ban hunting too. The new BOD for that 501 (c) 3 moved away from that radical stance because they want to win this thing and if that got out then they'd have no chance.

Then came along Trap free Montana. They also have headquarters here in the Bitterroot Valley, they worded the initiative a little differently than what Footloose liked so Footloose withdrew being a sponsor, and will work for thier version of a anti trapping bill in 2016. This according to their web sites.

We need to firm up our State constitution making trapping a right just like fishing and hunting.

 

[Sytes]

No, I developed my opinion from the largest percentage of dogs that get caught in traps. Their mostly on private property (something that won't change if this passed) and they are allowed to run wild and free. Had nothing to do with a presumption of how your dogs are taken care of. If you don't let that happen you have nothing to worry about.

Your post was vague on where you were worried this could happen or how..

My post was vague... whatever floats your boat. I'll tell ya straight, if I was an outdoors enthusiast w/ little to no knowledge of trapping, you would not have promoted support rather the opposite. I respect your views and value your content here. Impressions are often the lead in initial opinions. Thankfully I know you to be better than this.

As John Hughes (MTA VP) said, maybe more distance is needed. I fully agree. I value recreational activity with my dogs, camping... etc (part you refer to as "vague"). This action would certainly shore up further support than select areas, 20' here, 20 yards there... or even the lack luster comments to keep your dogs in your own yard...

 

[shoots-straight]

I have always loved books on trappers, Frank Bird Linderman's "Montana Adventure" or Bud Moore's "The Lochsa Story" fill me with wonder and sometimes make me wish I was borne 150 years earlier, but I'm not. I would not doubt if this passes. If those gathering signatures came to my door, I would not sign, and if it were on the ballot, I'd vote no. Not necessarily because I think it is a bad idea, but because I'm kind of on the fence and it would effect people I love who do trap.

Trapping is not hunting. Saying that people who hunt should oppose this bill is like saying because I own guns I should join the NRA. I have two primary concerns with trapping:

1. The ethics of trapping are not nearly as coherent as those of hunting ungulates

2.The number of trapper/forest user conflicts will do nothing but rise as use increases and access decreases. Which in the end will favor the forest user.

As to 1, I find it difficult to justify trapping in light of what we consider ethical when it comes to hunting big critters. If what is/isn't ethical in hunting is grounded in animal suffering(and I believe it is) then there are contradictions in what we would find appalling when it comes to ungulates (for example: snaring an elk) and what is perfectly reasonable for a bobcat, in spite of a bobcat having a higher neurological function, and thus a higher capability of experiencing what humans talk about when we talk about suffering. I am well aware that trapping is not the evil-bloody-pawed-screaming event that Footloose MT portrays it as. But I lump the emotion of fear into the category of suffering when it comes to sentient creatures, and freezing to death or drowning also exceed my personal threshold on what is an acceptable amount of suffering involved in destroying an animal life.
Additionally, even though skilled trappers usually catch the animal they are targeting, there are non-target casualties, many of which go un reported and are a damn shame. But then again, why wouldn't a trapper not report non-target animal casualties in light of the possibility of his/her lifestyle being voted away?

As to 2, the argument goes to the forest user. It would be fair to say that in the same way wolf lovers are irrational about wolf hunting because wolves look like their dogs at home, a significant amount of passion against trapping is borne from pets being caught in traps. I do not shed-hunt certain gulches around my home with my dog because I know there are traps in them, but from utilitarian point of view, trappers take up a lot of real estate and there are probably not as many of them as there are people wanting a place to let there dogs roam free. If you are one of those people who thinks dogs should never be more than 10 feet from their owner-even in the woods- then I feel sorry for your dogs.

Combine the forest user/trapper conflict with the perceived shaky-ethical-ground that trapping is on already, and I think the days of trapping on public lands may be over.

Nameless, it's obvious that you aren't real familiar with trapping. Very few traps are out in the spring when you would go looking for sheds. Pelts in good shape are the reason a person traps. The only animals still good then are water based animals, and a few Raccoons, which are mostly around riparian areas also.

One could make the same assumptions about hunting that you shared about trapping. There's lots of unethical behavior. Just because your a trapper doesn't mean it's more rampant.

Ethics are what we do when no one is looking.

I don't think the days of trapping on public lands will be over just yet. If that happened how long before the next (un ethical) outdoor practice takes place.

Call trapping the indicator species of our outdoor world. What happens there may show the direction we are headed.

 

[shoots-straight]

My post was vague... whatever floats your boat. I'll tell ya straight, if I was an outdoors enthusiast w/ little to no knowledge of trapping, you would not have promoted support rather the opposite. I respect your views and value your content here. Impressions are often the lead in initial opinions. Thankfully I know you to be better than this.

As John Hughes (MTA VP) said, maybe more distance is needed. I fully agree. I value recreational activity with my dogs, camping... etc (part you refer to as "vague"). This action would certainly shore up further support than select areas, 20' here, 20 yards there... or even the lack luster comments to keep your dogs in your own yard...

You said if your dog was trapped that would be a driving force in you not supporting trapping a being mad. Because most dogs are caught on private lands running wild you didn't specify how or when your dog could be caught.

Do you do a lot of camping in the winter? Not a lot of trapping goes on in the winter. During hunting season there's traps out and always has been. Has any of your dogs been caught yet? Not a real problem in the past and certainly shouldn't be any in the future.

 

[Sytes]

You said if your dog was trapped that would be a driving force in you not supporting trapping a being mad.

I would not support this without a doubt. it is way too big and dramatic. with that said, one of the driving forces behind this will be pet canines getting caught in these traps. on this note I fully empathize with their pissed off attitude. I too will be very pissed off if it ever happens to my dogs.

I made clear I would not support this. These situations are the catalyst for such outlandish initiatives. If I and I imagine many dog owners would be pissed as hell to see their dog flailing in a trap. There needs to be a medium between recreational activity and trapping.

Because most dogs are caught on private lands running wild you didn't specify how or when your dog could be caught.

I support trapping. I also support others aside from trappers enjoying the outdoors. Dogs, hiking, camping should not have to fear their dog getting caught up in one. Keep them a reasonable distance from recreational activity and there would be a lot less support for such initiatives.

I'd pretty clear on my activity with my dogs. My wife and I enjoy taking them out with us.
In fact we recently shelled out a crapload of $$$ on the garmin GPS and the garmin Delta training collar for our bloodhound as his nose can take over his ears. Now, if he ran off nose to the ground into the great wild... and hooked himself in a foothold, that is on me. Not the trapper and I would personally be appreciative a trapper used such traps. However, if he boogered off 50 yards from camp and slapped a trap... I would be pissed! If you can not see the difference, good luck shoring up support.

Most dogs caught on private. Okay... Let me venture an opinion on human nature. Private... easy report as it clearly shows the dog was on another persons property. Now public land brings what is ever so present negative light to the populous of footloose kool aid drinkers. I've heard the banter of frustrated trappers getting a bad rap and the 3 S's or if still alive and not mauled, get 'em free and all is good talk emerges. Lost dog is just that. Better than filling the ammo can of the treehuggers, right?. Major kudos to those reporting and standing their ground on legit and ethical trapping... though to call "fwp encouraged" (not required) reporting accurate, well maybe not as accurate as would be expected...

Do you do a lot of camping in the winter? Not a lot of trapping goes on in the winter. During hunting season there's traps out and always has been. Has any of your dogs been caught yet? Not a real problem in the past and certainly shouldn't be any in the future.

Prior to my accident I enjoyed cross country skiing and snowshoeing... I hope to get back into this. My wife and I enjoy taking our dogs pre opening rifle season to set camp, among other adventures, etc.

Inquiring if my dogs have been caught --- yet... is the same as a LEO not wearing a vest because s/he has not been shot --- yet. Hopefully never to occur on both counts.

back on note though, this is way too massive... and will hopefully be the reason it fails.

Again , this initiative, if advanced is not something I would support however, 200 yards away from trails, roads, etc... I would favor very much.

http://m.helenair.com/news/local/fw...11e2-9738-001a4bcf887a.html?mobile_touch=true

“We’ve worked with Region 2 in four different areas to take trapping out of there,” Hughes said at the June 5 FWP Commission meeting in Havre. “We are hoping to work with you guys on this too. We don’t want conflict either.

“We support this, and 300 feet might not be enough. Maybe in some of these areas we don’t need trapping at all.”

This is John Hughes, Regional Vice Pesident of the Montana Trappers Association.

Your claiming he does not support trapping?

Let me be very clear again, I am not opposed to trapping by any means. If an initiative or if fwp brought out a regulation for a 200 yard no trapping zone around trails, roads and campsite / recreation areas I would 100% support it.

Whew! That was a shnitz load...of a post.

 

[elkantlers]

Sorry shoots, but I can't help but take offence to this remark. Are me and my dog not welcome on public lands. I'm not one that would support a trapping ban on public lands, but I also feel the sentiment in your statement is what will push people to sign the petition.

I run around the mountains A LOT! and I usually have my dogs along for the ride. I'm also one that doesn't stick to trails very well. I explore every little nook and cranny I can. That being said, I've attended the workshops the local trappers put on to show you how to remove a trap.

But to somehow suggest that I should just stay home and all will be okay is very narrow minded, and diminishes every other argument you have on the topic.

just saying

Saying that Trappers are not allowed on public land is just as narrow minded. There were trappers in Montana (Lewis and Clark) long before there were pet owners.

 

[katqanna]

Anja Hyster (sp) the German immigrant that moved here and started "Footloose" wanted their mission statement to continue to work to ban hunting too. The new BOD for that 501 (c) 3 moved away from that radical stance because they want to win this thing and if that got out then they'd have no chance.

Shoots, do you know if an anti-hunting mission statement was ever in print, on their website? I just pulled their site up on the Wayback, from 2008 and I'm looking through pages and dont see a mission statement. I would be very concerned if there was an anti-hunting direction. People should know that, in my opinion.

I have a friend here in Bozeman, whose hunting dog got caught in a trap on public lands, while his wife took the dogs on a hike. As a result, I have not taken my dogs out hiking, because I dont even keep to trails. I have gone to the FWP pet release workshop, to familiarize myself on what to do in case my or other peoples pets got caught. I was very grateful for the experience and FWP did a great job explaining, demonstrating and having hands on set ups with each type of trap so that we could do it ourselves. Well, at least try. I am afraid I am not big enough, or weigh enough to get the larger trap open.

I may have been the only hunter in the room and heard plenty of comments from the other participants about traps and hunting. While I am not a fan of the indiscriminate nature of traps, nor the close proximity to public trails, or length of time that an animal may be caught in one, I do value hunting and the publics right to hunt. I know that there are major groups out there that want to see all hunting gone and will keep eroding at our rights. If I do not stand for the rights of the other types of hunting that I might not participate in, my own rights will be next on the chopping block. That does not mean that I might not advocate for what I might see as protections or ethics concerning another facet of hunting, like supporting a ban against drones or keeping atv's out of certain areas for ungulate security. I am greatly concerned by threats to hunting in general.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

heres the problem. . . .the private property was MINE. Like I said, its obviously different here. . . In the country, on farms, etc you will rarely see a dog chained up or whatever. . not saying its right or wrong just saying its a chance everyone takes. Funny though, If I shot everybody I have caught trespassing on MY property for various reasons (hunting, mushrooms, etc). . .I'd have one hell of a pile.

***You would not have caused me to make that post if you had said initially that the trap was illegally set on YOUR private property. If that would have been my property and my dog involved, you can bet the people who did it would not have been happy campers when I was through with them!

 

[shoots-straight]

Shoots, do you know if an anti-hunting mission statement was ever in print, on their website? I just pulled their site up on the Wayback, from 2008 and I'm looking through pages and dont see a mission statement. I would be very concerned if there was an anti-hunting direction. People should know that, in my opinion.

I have a friend here in Bozeman, whose hunting dog got caught in a trap on public lands, while his wife took the dogs on a hike. As a result, I have not taken my dogs out hiking, because I dont even keep to trails. I have gone to the FWP pet release workshop, to familiarize myself on what to do in case my or other peoples pets got caught. I was very grateful for the experience and FWP did a great job explaining, demonstrating and having hands on set ups with each type of trap so that we could do it ourselves. Well, at least try. I am afraid I am not big enough, or weigh enough to get the larger trap open.

I may have been the only hunter in the room and heard plenty of comments from the other participants about traps and hunting. While I am not a fan of the indiscriminate nature of traps, nor the close proximity to public trails, or length of time that an animal may be caught in one, I do value hunting and the publics right to hunt. I know that there are major groups out there that want to see all hunting gone and will keep eroding at our rights. If I do not stand for the rights of the other types of hunting that I might not participate in, my own rights will be next on the chopping block. That does not mean that I might not advocate for what I might see as protections or ethics concerning another facet of hunting, like supporting a ban against drones or keeping atv's out of certain areas for ungulate security. I am greatly concerned by threats to hunting in general.

Here's the founders farwell letter.

Former Director’s Farewell letter

Dear friends,
You may already have heard the news, but I wanted to take a moment to let you know that I am leaving my position as executive director of Footloose Montana. I will focus on completing my Ph.D. on wildlife conservation and ethics, and I have taken on a fulltime paid position. And while I will always support Footloose’s goals, I will no longer be involved with Footloose because the organization’s mission is to achieve trapfree public lands and is not concerned with hunting.
It is however not easy for me to leave this fine organization with a most important mission—to end trapping on public lands for people, pets and wildlife—and with the most fabulous board of directors and most importantly, incredibly committed members and supporters! I remember one day in the spring of 2010 towards the end of our signature gathering campaign, when a couple of supporters announced they had taken out a loan to donate to our cause and to help finance the last stretch of the campaign!
I will never forget those of you, who have been supporting our cause in many ways, either through speaking up against trapping, writing letters, organizing fundraising events, recruiting friends and family members to become Footloose members, taking the time to write encouraging and supportive notes and letters, donating time, money and energy to help us in our efforts to make this world a little better for wild animals.
Together, we have come a long way on the road to end trapping, but there is a lot of work still to be done. I could have never done my job without your commitment and dedication. Thank You!
All the best,
Anja

Right from the founders mouth. It use too at least in some form. Many of these groups don't want to come out against hunting just yet. Later, down the road a ways. Don't be fooled. This is only the first step, the easy one to attack.

 

[shoots-straight]

Originally Posted by shoots-straight
Because most dogs are caught on private lands running wild you didn't specify how or when your dog could be caught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sytes
I support trapping. I also support others aside from trappers enjoying the outdoors. Dogs, hiking, camping should not have to fear their dog getting caught up in one. Keep them a reasonable distance from recreational activity and there would be a lot less support for such initiatives.

I'd pretty clear on my activity with my dogs. My wife and I enjoy taking them out with us.
In fact we recently shelled out a crapload of $$$ on the garmin GPS and the garmin Delta training collar for our bloodhound as his nose can take over his ears. Now, if he ran off nose to the ground into the great wild... and hooked himself in a foothold, that is on me. Not the trapper and I would personally be appreciative a trapper used such traps. However, if he boogered off 50 yards from camp and slapped a trap... I would be pissed! If you can not see the difference, good luck shoring up support.

To be clear, you posted that after my comments on keeping your dog at home.

“We’ve worked with Region 2 in four different areas to take trapping out of there,” Hughes said at the June 5 FWP Commission meeting in Havre. “We are hoping to work with you guys on this too. We don’t want conflict either.

“We support this, and 300 feet might not be enough. Maybe in some of these areas we don’t need trapping at all.” This is John Hughes, Regional Vice Pesident of the Montana Trappers Association.

Your claiming he does not support trapping?

I support the setbacks too. Where did you get that I didn't?

 

[mtmuley]

AGAIN, trapping first, something else we do later. mtmuley

 

[Frenchy]

Saying that Trappers are not allowed on public land is just as narrow minded. There were trappers in Montana (Lewis and Clark) long before there were pet owners.

I fully support trapping on public lands. I only meant to point out that the argument that people should keep there pets on their own property was a poor tactic of drumming up suopport.

This initiative will be determined largely in part on how it is perceived by pet owners. Thats a fact that you can't take for granted when one forms his arguments.

 

[Sytes]

To be clear, you posted that after my comments on keeping your dog at home.

I'll refresh your clarity. This is also what sparked a couple others to reply towards your comment, " Like I said, "If you keep your dogs on your property then you have nothing to fear."

This is post #14 & a response to my post quoted below...

Like I said, "If you keep your dogs on your property then you have nothing to fear.

I believe that proposal was adopted and the 300 feet exclusion was put into effect in those heavily used areas. Also the trappers themselves vacated the Como lake recreation area to keep pets safe. How much more do you think is necessary?

Now that dogs are getting shot by wolf hunters is it reasonable to keep wolf hunters away from roads and trails too? Coyote hunters? Restrictions are part of the game, and the trappers are working on that.

Most of the dogs caught where trespassing on private lands. The public land trappers are usually farther from these areas. There are exceptions though. All it takes is one bad apple.

Glad you won't support it.

This is post #13

http://m.helenair.com/news/local/fw...11e2-9738-001a4bcf887a.html?mobile_touch=true


This is an interesting article on this topic.

Again, this initiative, if advanced is not something I would support however, 200 yards away from trails, roads, etc... I would favor very much. Marking the trap location and theft... ok, fair enough. I support trapping. I also support others aside from trappers enjoying the outdoors. Dogs, hiking, camping should not have to fear their dog getting caught up in one. Keep them a reasonable distance from recreational activity and there would be a lot less support for such initiatives.
I personally knew of the couple in Eureka whose dog got caught in a trap. I may not agree with their considerations and comments though I certainly can empathize with their frustration and would be as pissed if not more so had it been one of mine.
As for keeping my dogs in my yard... really? (Edit added: initially I took the ~keep my dogs in my yard~ as a bit of sarcasm though maybe you believe my dogs are free to roam at home. They are secured in a fenced pasture. My comment is related to recreational activities with them.)

In the end it would appear we are and have always been on the same side, glad your view on keeping dogs in their yard changed.

 

[naturebob]

I didn't trap when I lived in AZ. but they passed that law about 17-18 years ago ,and deer herds have gone down since. Az. is only 17% private land , so aint many animal getting trapped. Good luck Guys. Give it Hell. No goin back if they pass it.....BOB!

 

[rosco]

I'll refresh your clarity. This is also what sparked a couple others to reply towards your comment, " Like I said, "If you keep your dogs on your property then you have nothing to fear."

This is post #14 & a response to my post quoted below...


This is post #13


In the end it would appear we are and have always been on the same side, glad your view on keeping dogs in their yard changed.

If you keep your dogs in check like you say you do,why are you so worried about your dog getting hung up in a trap? Are conibears legal to set out of water in montana?

If leg holds worked like most people think they do, I wouldnt have any fingers left..If you have to let fido out of a leg hold some day, he will be fine.

 

[Sytes]

Roscoe,
Based on the concern in the OP, this statewide crap of banning trapping on our public land has a potential not to be taken lightly. Speaking as a dog owner whose family enjoys our dog(s) on our public land, and faced with trapper type placing public comments to keep our dogs on our own property is NOT going to help their cause... to put it bluntly. Myself, as stated multiple times, I oppose this ban as a hunter who respects trapping as a tool in the overall conservation.
Shoring up further support may come at what myself, others and what has been found to be a Regional Vice President for the Montana Trappers Association opinion give a reasonable buffer between trapping wild canines and domestic canines. The general public should feel assured they may enjoy our public land w/o the fear generated by these clowns by knowing there are laws protecting recreational, road and trails from a wild canine trap catching their own dog... Statewide. My personal opinion is a 200 yard spacing of the areas mentioned would garner more support than current.

 

[mixedbag]

Great to see all the hunters supporting their states trappers!!!You guys are correct, this would only be their first step to eliminating all of us off public land.I saw on trapperman website where the one head lady spouts off on her facebook page this very message.Rest assured if you don't help your fellow outdoorsman,you will be the next target.It appears as though the trappers of your state are taking this very seriously and they will have support from trappers throughout the US.Resident hunters need to back them up though also.As a trapper, we NEVER want to catch a non-target(dog).It does happen and properly tuned traps would never cause any problems for your pet.The one guy on here that thinks its unethical has never gone on a ride along with a trapper.Almost every animal I take is sound asleep in my trap unless I wake them up on my approach.If you'd like to learn more about trappers,go onto Trapperman and read about them.You'd be surprised how much time they spend modifying traps for the comfort of their catch

 

[RUT JUNKEY]

***You would not have caused me to make that post if you had said initially that the trap was illegally set on YOUR private property. If that would have been my property and my dog involved, you can bet the people who did it would not have been happy campers when I was through with them!

My apologies Topgun, I didn't make that clear. I never did find out who it was, but, haven't had any issues since. RJ