Welfare Abuse in the West

[JoseCuervo]

It is always interesting whenever there is a government program, there is an endless line of people looking for hand-outs.

Paul Sheets and Justin Crum fidget as they stand near the rear of their 1997 flatbed truck, which is outfitted with what they hope is all the firefighting gear they'll need to take in around $1,300 a day this summer.

They bought the truck from a guy who told them he made around $70,000 on wildfires last summer, "and he didn't even have to start the pump up," Sheets said, carefully watching as George McLaughlan, a Highway Patrol commercial vehicle inspector, goes over the shiny rig inch by inch.

Sheets was on the Helena Indian Alliance hand crew last year and found out from talking to fire engine operators that he was making pennies compared to their income. So Crum, Sheets and his stepfather, Jerry Crum, pooled their resources and bought the truck for about $20,000.

"Hopefully next year, if everything goes well this summer, we'll get another engine and hire some more people," Sheets said.

McLaughlan pulls a tape measurer across the back of the silver flatbed, his brow furrowing as he takes another reading from the flatbed to the floor. Something's wrong here.

He later shows how the left side is tilted about an inch lower than the right side of the flatbed. Somebody changed the configuration of the pumps, hoses or water tank bolted to the floor.

"It's loaded different; it was balanced last year," McLaughlan said. "Like this, it's going to put extra wear on the tires. It's pulling on the frame. The steering's going to be erratic even on a paved road.

"These trucks aren't meant to go on mountain roads; they're made to pull a motor home down the highway. They're not made for this weight."

Hundreds of these inspections are taking place across Montana and the West, as people try to sign on to earn a share of what was a billion-dollar industry nationwide last year. With the right equipment and a drought, three people and a fire truck can make $45,000 in less than three weeks, well above the $25,020 annual income of a typical Montanan in 2002.

The influx of men and machines is a mixed blessing.

Now that more resources are available, chances are that state and federal agencies only have to put out a call and dozens of privately owned water-hauling trucks, bulldozing tractors, all-terrain vehicles - almost any kind of heavy equipment imaginable - are at their command.

However, the quality of those rigs, and their operators, varies greatly, to the dismay not just of those hiring the equipment, but also to the firefighters on the lines.

"I spent about $200,000 on my machine, not counting the $15,000 for the water system alone," said Dave Hoback, who's turned his logging skidgine into one of the top-dollar rigs on a fire. "I've seen guys or heard on fires where contractors just hire people and they're out in the parking lot trying to train them how to run a cat or skidgine. They're putting operators on stuff they don't know how to run."

People also have shown up on fires with old dump trucks hauling even older rusty fuel tanks filled with water and hooked to a hose. This equipment can be dangerous to everyone on a fire - contractors cite examples of vehicles stalling at inopportune times or losing their brakes or pumping capabilities - and adding to the insult is that the operator may be getting the same daily rate as the guy with a new rig that meets all the specs.

Just about everyone who deals with firefighting at the Department of Natural Resources and Conservation has heard the complaints. After the 2000 wildfires, they've taken a stronger stance as to what will and will not be allowed on fire lines. Throughout Montana, DNRC and inspectors like McLaughlan are holding seminars, handing out spec sheets and crawling over, under and around firefighting rigs prior to the expected wildfire season.

"We check the tires, the drive lines. We check the seals. We look for any mechanical defects. We listen to the engine and if it sounds bad - like if there's a knock, or blue smoke - it's not going to pass," said Rick Grady, DNRC Helena unit fire supervisor.

"We've had concerns brought up last fall on people getting on the fire line who shouldn't have been there … and we're trying to make sure it's all good equipment and the pay is fair and equitable. We want contractors to be treated fairly and equitably."

At this particular contractor sign-up, 19 engines were inspected; three failed to pass. Of eight water tenders, only five were signed on. Both skidgines were approved, and 10 more pieces of equipment were awaiting a thorough going over.

Grady said that some of the problems for the equipment that failed included incomplete training records or mechanical problems.

McLaughlan makes a few suggestions to Sheets and the Crums, who agree to make the changes and come back to get reinspected.

"Every day is a learning experience," Jerry Crum said.

 

[feclnogn]

Do you think they have any use for an old beat up Toyota truck. It still runs pretty good and I can carry a 55 gallon drum full of water.

To be honest EG that article on waste could apply to the entire government budget and how our congress conducts business, after all it's not their money.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I have known quite a few guys who contracted in with worse than a beat up Toyota and a Jug of water, and got paid handsomely. It is easy money, and I think if the fires are there, the $$$$ will be awarded.

The funny thing is this is all State of Montana money, not Federal Money. In Boise, we have the National Interagency Fire Center, and that is just a huge Gravy Train, as everybody wants a piece of the "free cheese".

 

[Rogue 6]

I'm sure if you ask anyone thats been around any government agency or program, they will tell you there is a huge amount of waste. I am fine with "gifting" my hard earned money to the government if "MY" money is not wasted, but you and I both know that it is. I bet Weyerhauser or Boise Cascade could fight fires on their lands much cheaper and do a better job. Good 'ol capitalism breeds productivity at a better price. Government breeds corruption and waste.

 

[ELKCHSR]

It's not so easy Gunner, and if you got off that big butt of yours and put your money into a truck you would see. As long as you didn't use any government pull, you would see this The day of the old Toyota pick up have fallen along the way side, it is still out there on a very small scale, but they make sure you have your trucks up to State and Federal standards and run the most fine tooth comb over them to make sure there is nothing wrong with them. You may take your old truck into the inspection station a dozen plus to get things just right. It has to be up to or better than new standards.
Yes they are paying good now, but what happens in a year or so when the fire season slacks off? The government won't be paying a dime to keep these fleets of vehicles maintained and they will be sitting there ready to use at a moments notice.
One thing these "Idiot" reporters never mention, that the fleet of vehicles that are owned and operated by all the private contractors don't gain a nickle on the off season, nor on any thing coming up to and actually going out on an incident. There are hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of dollars tied up into getting these vehicles up to snuff, and not one dollar is billed to the tax payers to get things ready.
If it was so equitable for the Government to get into this they would have been working up to it a long time ago.
Bottom line it isn't and all of this only makes for poor junk journalism.
Come on Gunner, I thought you did your home work and tried to find the whole story before opening up your mouth and stuffing your foot in up to your ass....
Oh wait, this is gunner we are talking about... what was I thinking...

 

[pawclaws]

Speakers on and Click Picture

 

[JoseCuervo]

If it is so unprofitable for these independent contractors, then why on earth would they all be providing rigs? That is called the "Free Market", and if there is the Demand, then people will come running in with the Supply, until they are in balance.

I have buddies who have put water tanks in the back of dump trucks, and made a fortune, and trust me they were not too bright. It would have to be pretty difficult not to get rich hiring in on this Gravy Train.

But Elkcheese, please tell us about the "junk journalism", and where the reporter was wrong...

 

[ELKCHSR]

No Goofy...
That is why they are doing it.
It is proffitable for contractors to do it, just no the Government...
Come on now, that is a lame start to some thing that could blossom to some thing very pretty...

 

[1_pointer]

If it's profitable for the contractors, why did you make a big deal out of the fact they have to outfit and maintain the truck on their dime?? Sounds like a business investment to me.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by ELKCHSR:
No Goofy...
That is why they are doing it.
It is proffitable for contractors to do it, just no the Government...
Come on now, that is a lame start to some thing that could blossom to some thing very pretty...

Anybody?

Can we get a translator in here?

 

[pawclaws]

That's because "the government" isn't supposed to make a profit!

 

[RogueWarrior1957]

Anybody?

Can we get a translator in here?

 

[pawclaws]

 

[ELKCHSR]

LMAO Rougue...
Tyler I will answer your question the best I can...
Yes it is a buisness investment, the secret word here is investment. These people put this equipment together in hopes of getting to use it on the fires, the old junk trucks and stuff some spout about are either a thing of the past, or they are kept in a quiet little place no one knows about. I have seen plenty of people put tons of money into equipment and not get much of any thing out of it, but that is how it goes, others put in little and get large returns.
The Government, even paying the higher prices for this equipment, can't compete in price over the long run of what it takes to upkeep this stuff. On the off years when hardly any fires are going, this equipment sits and doen't earn any one any thing, if it is sitting in a Government lot any where, it will cost the tax payers upkeep and extra people to keep it up.
The Government as history shows, has alway's used contract help and equipment in one form or another. It is rife with it now, in almost every aspect, this one is just a little more out in the open than most and is easy to see because it is usually in some ones back yard.

 

[Oak]

Heck, Elkchsr might be right on this one. I think I remember someone around here that didn't have much luck getting into the contract engine business.

Oak

 

[1_pointer]

Elkchsr- I guess I don't see why it's a big deal that these people are spending money or losing money to do this? I see it like most any business venture, you take your chances and hope it pays off. If it doesn't, well sorry. I'm not one to take too large of risks when it comes to my income, but then again by being safe I take myself out of the running for the big payoff. I prefer it that way.