Valles Caldera lottery dissapointment

[schmalts]

In my little fact finding conversation with Taulman from USO he told me something I didnt know went down in NM. Did any of you here this as well?
He said that the lottery now has a nonres cap the same as the drawing for the regular state draw system. This kind of seems like a double standard to me. here is why.
When the Baca ranch (old name) was private owned the owners were given a boatload of tags to do what they please with them, and they sold them to outfitters i guess. This is true in any private owned land of large size regardless who bought the land they could apply and get the landowner tags. With the recent sale of the Baca ranch to the federal govt, all the sudden the landowners are told they can only give 20 percent of the tags to the nonresidents even if the nonresidents bought higher than 20 percent of the tags it didnt matter.
Why is it that when the landowner happens to be the federal taxpayers the rules are changed?
The property was almost bought by private parties i was told because the state didnt want to pay for it. The feds coughed up the cash and the lottery for the tags was formed and done openly for a couple years. Now it has all changed.
is this true? Why the double standard? no NM residents would be hunting it without paying the 20k price tag like the old days if the federal taxpayers didnt buy this land, now this is the way it goes?

 

[Calif. Hunter]

If true, that sucks all right.

 

[1_pointer]

Here's your answer. It's as I thought, the ranch is just conforming to the state's quotas, which is to be expected. The feds own the land and the states manage the animals.

Valles Caldera: How to apply

 

[Erik in AK]

Schmaltz and everyone else who values large tracts of prime elk habitat staying intact, be grateful the feds did buy the Baca Ranch. It almost became multi-million dollar home subdivisions and golf courses.

NM could fix most of its problems with many of its lottery hunts by adopting a preference point system IMO

 

[schmalts]

I was under the assumption that this place was all different in the beginning. I remember reading that the feds said in order to keep the feds from re-selling it tha the place would need to raise enough money to be self funded. This is why the lottery started and the F&G were somewhat left out.
I guess my double standard is.... why then do the landowner tags have different rules as to what can be done with them when the landowner is now the feds? Just another point of view on the whole fed land/landowner tag thing.

 

[1_pointer]

The feds are just following the state quotas, which was probably part of the agreement to be able to keep the 'landowner' tags. At least that is my guess.

It will be interesting to see how this experiment turns out in 10-20yrs.

 

[Erik in AK]

According to my father-in-law (lives in NM) the landowner tag system was kept in place as part of the deal. 1P's guesstimate is correct.

It is my understanding that allowing the contracted land manager to administer the landowner tags is more cost effective than adding the Baca land to the current lottery system

Schmalts,
If you're seriously looking into hunting NM elk have you considered an archery tag?
Odds of drawing a bow tag are decent and there is a lot of country to choose from.

I would recommend the west central Gila Mountains (basically you're hunting the same gene pool as Arizona's famous White Mountain elk) or the San Pedro Parks Wilderness area in unit 6A or the Sacremento Mountains in unit 34. 34 is one of the most heavily applied for, and hunted units bit there are a LOT of elk there as long as you're up to hunting hard at 8000 to 9000 feet.

 

[schmalts]

Yes i was under the same ussumption, that this stayed under the landowner tag system. The landowner system is not held to a nonresident quota.
USO talked about some of the scams that they uncovered. I guess i wonder if this is one of them. When they publish the advertisement for this lottery and get thousands of nonres ticket buyers do they tell them that thier chances are null and void if they get drawn after 20% of the tags have gone to nonresidents? How are they letting the public know thier chances are much lower and the draw odds are far less than years past?
I need to do some research.

 

[schmalts]

this is the kind of shit that pisses me off. US taxpayers buy it, hold a lottery to fund it, and low and behold the majority of the money made came from everywhere else than NM. Then the residents cry because they only drew 6 tags!! well BUY MORE TICKETS!!
then of course the rules change and instead of the Federal taxpayers who just shelled out the cash getting even chances depending on how much money they spend it goes back to a fricking welfare system. This is why the feds should have told the state to buy it themselves. This place was supposed to be different and self supporting for all federal residents to enjoy. I am sorry, but this is wrong.

First the good news: If you're a New Mexico resident and want to hunt elk on the Valles Caldera National Preserve, your odds of scoring a license next year will likely be better than ever.
Now the bad news: Plunking down more money still equates to better odds, so the license system still favors hunters with deep pockets.
The state Game Commission earlier this month held a special meeting to revamp the way hunters apply for bull-elk permits on the Caldera— an 89,000-acre Jemez Mountains gem not far from Los Alamos known as hallowed ground to many who dream of pursuing big, bugling bulls.
As a result of that meeting, a quota system that gives New Mexicans a big advantage in drawing a Caldera tag will go into effect next year. That's a welcome change, said Oscar Simpson, an elk hunter and president of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation.
Simpson, whose group pushed for the changes, said hunters around the state have been complaining about the former Caldera system, in which New Mexico residents did not get any preference over out-of-staters.
The wildlife federation supports the new rules, Simpson said, though it still has some heartburn over a continuing provision that allows hunters to buy as many $25 lottery chances as they wish.
"You're promoting rich people buying a bunch of tags so they can hunt in the Valles Caldera," Simpson said.
The Caldera, which is unique from other public land in that it has been mandated to become self-sufficient, generated about $350,000 this year from the elk system.
The hunts have been the largest money maker thus far for the Caldera, which became public land just three years ago. Preserve officials believe revenues could drop next year due to the changes.
Gary Ziehe, executive director of the Valles Caldera Trust, which manages the Caldera, said last week the changes aren't what the Caldera had in mind. But he said the Caldera and the state Game and Fish Department are partners, and that entails some give and take.
"The only issue of concern to us is, this is a national preserve, and we feel strongly we ought to be able to accommodate people from everywhere across the country," Ziehe said.
He added, however, that the Caldera realizes Game and Fish is responsible for managing New Mexico's game, saying, "This is a cooperative effort."

State control
Public elk hunts on the Caldera began in 2002, two years after the federal government purchased the area. During its first two hunting seasons, the Caldera doled out all or most of its bull-elk licenses through its own drawing system.
In that system, hunters from around the nation paid a nonrefundable, $25 fee per chance, and there was no limit on the number of chances a hunter could purchase. During the 2002 season, the hunt authorizations were fully transferable— meaning someone could win a hunt, then peddle it off for thousands of dollars. That practice was stopped in the 2003 process.
State Game and Fish handles the drawing process for elk tags everywhere else in New Mexico, and it has a quota mandating that 78 percent of the licenses must go to resident hunters. That quota didn't apply in the Caldera-run drawings, but it should have, according to Attorney General Patricia Madrid.
In a formal opinion issued last week, Madrid said the previous elk-tag allocation system for the Valles Caldera didn't meet state law.
"We believe that the Legislature did not intend to allow other agencies to circumvent the law allocating 78 percent of the elk hunting licenses to New Mexico residents," she said in a statement. "The Valles Caldera is a treasure to be shared among all New Mexicans."
Last year, under the old system, Game and Fish held a drawing for eight of the Caldera's bull tags, and the Caldera itself held a drawing for 48 bull tags. Of the latter group, only 13 hunters who drew licenses were from New Mexico.
Texas hunters scored seven of the tags, while other winners hailed from as far away as Indiana, Kentucky and Hawaii.
No more. Game and Fish spokesman Marty Frentzel said the Game Commission during a Nov. 13 meeting voted to bring the entire Caldera elk-drawing process under the department's purview and in line with state law.
Frentzel said next year hunters will still have to purchase their $25 chances from the Caldera, and there will again not be any limit to the number of chances each hunter can buy. But now, hunters must submit these "access-agreement coupons" along with a Valles Caldera Trust hunt application to Game and Fish, instead of to the Caldera's management. Game and Fish will conduct the drawing using the 78 percent quota system.
That means more New Mexicans will walk away with Caldera licenses. But the New Mexico hunter who drops $100 for four chances will get better odds than the New Mexico hunter who buys only one chance.
The new system also eliminates a $150 user fee previously charged by the Caldera to hunters who applied through Game and Fish. Now, the $25 access coupon is the only fee that will be charged by the Caldera.
Hunters also can apply for other New Mexico elk hunts in addition to the Caldera hunt, Frentzel said.
The drawing for the Caldera licenses will take place before the regular elk-license drawing process. Hunters lucky enough to obtain a Caldera tag will be deleted from the other drawing and get a refund for their non-Caldera application, while the losers will get a chance to draw a hunt elsewhere.

 

[Erik in AK]

Save yourself a lot of aggravation and look into the units I mentioned--I've hunted 6A before and its in the Jemez as well as the Caldera.

Non-res bowhunters really do have a decent chance at tags in good areas in NM.

good luck

 

[1_pointer]

How are they letting the public know thier chances are much lower and the draw odds are far less than years past?

It's on the website.

The change is due to politics, which often times SUCK! IMO, this is less of a disservice to non-resident hunters than the wilderness law in WY or guide requirements for certain species.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Sounds like if you are a NM resident you get a better opportunity to get a ticket to hunt, and 20% of them still go to non-residents. With 20%, it sounds like NM is actually being generous to non-residents with their elk. If you ask me, by not having the cap in the past, the NM residents were actually the ones that got screwed. If you want a better chance at getting a ticket, maybe consider moving to NM and becoming a resident. What other terrible scams occuring in the west did USO fill you in on?

 

[schmalts]

Greenhorn, your missing the point, this is an all out lottery to help fund this land purchase. It was not supposed to be in the public draw. The reason that the nonres got most of the tags in the past is only because they bought the most tickets. I am not against the nonres cap, but this should not be included as it was not supposed to in the first place. It was supposed to be held like the new landowner (in this case the feds) where to get the landowner tags and do thier own raffle to help pay for the upkeep of the property. There was a lot of things promised when they begged the feds into buying this.
All i have to say is the Caldera head honch better not start crying that they are not making enough money on the lottery now.
"What other terrible scams occuring in the west did USO fill you in on?" Well he mentioned your name in fact, but i wouldnt worry about it.
Why not call him yourself? Fill him in on your opinions and hear his. It was interesting to talk with him, even though i know his biggest motive is his own pocket book.
Stan said he talked to him, i would like to hear some of how his conversation went.

 

[The Hedgehog]

You'd think there would be a cap, since the elk belong to the state of NM and not the ranch. I must be missing the point.

 

[schmalts]

Point being if it was anyone else owned the ranch but the feds they could sell the tags to anyone without a nonres cap. other point this was supposed to be held in a different manner as the usual way to earn as much money so the land was self sufficiant.
And the elk do not belong to a state, the state is in charge of managing them but do not own them. In any other situation like this the state gives a ranch owner tags to do what they wish to earn money if they wish to help pay bills. I know, the same old arguement, I just feel this is different as the state of NM almost Begged the feds to buy this, and deals were made in an effort as to not make this land a burden on the federal taxpayers.
If you read the whole story i found the guy who runs the place already said he will worry about the money raised now.