UPOM suing FWP over elk regulations

[tjones]

We have VERY generous cow tags and 6month long seasons.

And if that doesn't work we can just use the new MOGA catch phrase--""Life isn't fair"

 

[antlerradar]

I get that finding people to hunt isn't an issue for you Antler.....I was just hearing your concerns about the current Block program with regard to 3 months of policing. I would think 3-4 days of policing when you know there's elk on your land is way more palatable vs a season long commitment.

Might have me mixed up with someone else or I can not remember posting up concerns about BM. As for policing, As long as there is a four point close to the road you are going to have issues.

 

[antlerradar]

I think landowner/hunter relations would improve a lot if seasons were shortened like I suggested above. Landowners wouldn’t have their phones ringing for 4 months straight or their doors constantly knocked on

Getting the season out of the rut would be the best part. Most of the issues I have with the unethical happens during the rut when bucks are standing in sight of the road with a glazed look in there eyes.

 

[sacountry]

Might have me mixed up with someone else or I can not remember posting up concerns about BM. As for policing, As long as there is a four point close to the road you are going to have issues.

I think it was you on a different thread a couple months ago that mentioned a shortage of local FWP enforcement hurts the block program because there's no effective way to manage unrespectful hunters...essentially leaving it up to the rancher to police their block mgmt land. Outfitters present a single point of accountability for land use which is a desirable reason to lease it out. I understood those were some of the concerns with the block management program as it's presented today.

Allowing a land owner to control the block mgmt window specifically to short 3-5 day windows when elk are present, similar to the old way the after-the-season damage hunts worked, but with an extension of dates that might range from August - November could be a viable solution to educating elk off of private. It would certainly curtail the amount of time spent policing while opening up dates when elk are causing the most damage to crops.

 

[sacountry]

We have VERY generous cow tags and 6month long seasons. If those aren’t good enough tools or tools that aren’t being used to lower the elk populations I suspect that controlling the population isn’t really what they are shooting for

Agreed. Extended seasons aren't the solution. Bull tags for billionaires isn't the solution either. Safe, limited, and controlled access is what we should be aiming for, IMHO.

 

[antlerradar]

I think it was you on a different thread a couple months ago that mentioned a shortage of local FWP enforcement hurts the block program because there's no effective way to manage unrespectful hunters...essentially leaving it up to the rancher to police their block mgmt land. Outfitters present a single point of accountability for land use which is a desirable reason to lease it out. I understood those were some of the concerns with the block management program as it's presented today.

Allowing a land owner to control the block mgmt window specifically to short 3-5 day windows when elk are present, similar to the old way the after-the-season damage hunts worked, but with an extension of dates that might range from August - November could be a viable solution to educating elk off of private. It would certainly curtail the amount of time spent policing while opening up dates when elk are causing the most damage to crops.

Could have been, Will not be the last thing I forget.

 

[Eric Albus]

"Foisted"? Yet another false notion. Landowners, ranchers, and farmers assisted with the reintroduction.

'Don't know how old you are, but I don't think you were even around when the reintroduction occurred. Your "recollection" certainly deviates from the accurately described, factual, well-documented BACK FROM THE BRINK narrative published as the success story of Montana wildlife management which included reintroduction of elk and other species into areas where they had previously existed. As pointed to before ... limiting wildlife populations by "objective" numbers was not even a thing back then.

It wasn’t termed “objective numbers back then”.
FWP asked landowner what their tolerance was for “re-introduced” elk.

Like it or not the elk were not a “condition of the land” when the ground in eastern Montana was patented.

 

[Straight Arrow]

It wasn’t termed “objective numbers back then”.
FWP asked landowner what their tolerance was for “re-introduced” elk.

Like it or not the elk were not a “condition of the land” when the ground in eastern Montana was patented.

Spin it as you wish. You cannot "foist" your false narrative on those who were and are paying attention to truth and reality.
Sad to realize your assertions are tainted by ideology, not historical or accurate prevalent attitudes. Simply put, it comes across as "bar talk" expressed by UPOM support.

 

[antlerradar]

Like it or not the elk were not a “condition of the land” when the ground in eastern Montana was patented.

This is likely true for the homesteaders on the tail end of the homesteading era, but not for the first to arrive. When the first homesteaders arrived there was not only elk, but bighorns, wolves and grizzly bears. Most of those homesteaders that arrived late starved out in the thirty's and sold to the more established landowners.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This is likely true for the homesteaders on the tail end of the homesteading era, but not for the first to arrive. When the first homesteaders arrived there was not only elk, but bighorns, wolves and grizzly bears. Most of those homesteaders that arrived late starved out in the thirty's and sold to the more established landowners.

Roosevelt's journals & books dispel this myth. Only Bison were totally extirpated by the end of the 19th Century and even then you had stories of small bands or single bulls roaming. Remnant populations of elk still existed, especially around the island ranges. They'd been deliberately pushed out for the plow.

Reintroduction happened in conjunction with landowners, not against their will.

 

[Schaaf]

It wasn’t termed “objective numbers back then”.
FWP asked landowner what their tolerance was for “re-introduced” elk.

Like it or not the elk were not a “condition of the land” when the ground in eastern Montana was patented.

My Great Great Grandpa’s Journals from 1899 when he homesteaded the 73 Ranch would beg to differ.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Have eastern MT elk B tag, willing to assist in solving all rancher elk cow problems. Here to help as always.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Have eastern MT elk B tag, willing to assist in solving all rancher elk cow problems. Here to help as always.

Include your number and wait by the phone. It will be ringing off the hook from all the landowners being eaten out of house and home by over objective elk….

 

[tjones]

Have eastern MT elk B tag, willing to assist in solving all rancher elk cow problems. Here to help as always.

Remember Albus says life isn't fair.

 

[sacountry]

Remember Albus says life isn't fair.

I've found that when life isn't fair, try applying with a party tag featuring you and your 4 FWP burner accounts....or win the lottery so you can join the bulls for billionaires club.

 

[Unlucky]

Why not simplify it. Gaurenteed land owner tags. Bull tags Gaurenteed. Based on acres. Idk how many. Up for discussion. Bull elk. 1st choice only. Either otc or LE. Cow tags over the counter on private land. General season of course. Get rid of the 454, damage, shoulder bs. Elk objective numbers are based off of land owner tolerence not hunters. And if those land owners truly had a problem they would allow hunting like the 90s. Try it for 4yrs. And understand in some units elk are a problem yr round. Study it then c what would prevent the problem. Gaurenteed bull tags only if they open up to the public cow elk hunting rifle season.

Mule deer all draw or october hunting season

 

[Eric Albus]

Why not simplify it. Gaurenteed land owner tags. Bull tags Gaurenteed. Based on acres. Idk how many. Up for discussion. Bull elk. 1st choice only. Either otc or LE. Cow tags over the counter on private land. General season of course. Get rid of the 454, damage, shoulder bs. Elk objective numbers are based off of land owner tolerence not hunters. And if those land owners truly had a problem they would allow hunting like the 90s. Try it for 4yrs. And understand in some units elk are a problem yr round. Study it then c what would prevent the problem. Gaurenteed bull tags only if they open up to the public cow elk hunting rifle season.

Mule deer all draw or october hunting season

Not the worst plan I’ve heard.

 

[brocksw]

Not the worst plan I’ve heard.

Of course not. It heavily favors Landowners.


North American Model of Wildlife Conservation

1. Wildlife resources are conserved and held in trust for all citizens.
2. Commerce in dead wildlife is eliminated.
3. Wildlife is allocated according to democratic rule of law.
4. Wildlife may only be killed for a legitimate, non-frivolous purpose.
5. Wildlife is an international resource.
6. Every person has an equal opportunity under the law to participate in hunting and fishing
7. Scientific management is the proper means for wildlife conservation.

 

[brockel]

Why not simplify it. Gaurenteed land owner tags. Bull tags Gaurenteed. Based on acres. Idk how many. Up for discussion. Bull elk. 1st choice only. Either otc or LE. Cow tags over the counter on private land. General season of course. Get rid of the 454, damage, shoulder bs. Elk objective numbers are based off of land owner tolerence not hunters. And if those land owners truly had a problem they would allow hunting like the 90s. Try it for 4yrs. And understand in some units elk are a problem yr round. Study it then c what would prevent the problem. Gaurenteed bull tags only if they open up to the public cow elk hunting rifle season.

Mule deer all draw or october hunting season

When Montana “tries” things they usually don’t abandon them when they fail. They just add to them making them worse

 

[sacountry]

Why not simplify it. Gaurenteed land owner tags. Bull tags Gaurenteed. Based on acres. Idk how many. Up for discussion. Bull elk. 1st choice only. Either otc or LE. Cow tags over the counter on private land. General season of course. Get rid of the 454, damage, shoulder bs. Elk objective numbers are based off of land owner tolerence not hunters. And if those land owners truly had a problem they would allow hunting like the 90s. Try it for 4yrs. And understand in some units elk are a problem yr round. Study it then c what would prevent the problem. Gaurenteed bull tags only if they open up to the public cow elk hunting rifle season.

Mule deer all draw or october hunting season

Elk objectives should only be based off habitat sustainability as determined by biologists, not landowners nor hunters. We do offer a guaranteed elk landowner tag (non transferable) for landowners with more than 640 contiguous acres. Providing them with one additional transferable bull tag would provide some additional benefit/remuneration if they chose to participate in the Block program. Taking of bull elk will not help manage the overall population so issuing multiple guaranteed bull tags wouldn't solve anything.

I like the idea of limiting the mule deer season to something less than it currently is.

Trying something is treacherous to @brockel 's point. Making some changes to programs already in use is a better course