UPOM suing FWP over elk regulations

[Carnage2011]

$5000 each…

$5000 each…

We get FWP to agree that elk are inaccessible and shouldn’t be counted as part of the population counts and I’ll buy a collar immediately. There are a few hundred thousand hunters in MT; not sure that it would be hard to drum up some money.

 

[Eric Albus]

Good ideas are good ideas. This really should be a plpw bill. Could mean a couple thousand dollars extra in the fuel budget for the next year.

That’s almost enuf diesel to run one combine for a day!!

 

[Eric Albus]

Do you think it was intended to be a management tool or are you just saying it could be a management tool if changed to something like you mentioned?

I don’t know what the intent was, but my personal view is that it could become one.

 

[Eric Albus]

Wouldn’t the first step in this process be to update objectives? Or should we just start giving out bull tags first?

Yes, I brought that up at the meeting. FWP needs to sit down with all affected parties and see if objectives need increased/decreased.
Those who only care about their hunting opportunities will be vocal about raising numbers, while traditional landowners will want numbers static, or decreased. Trophy landowners won’t care as much as their livelihood doesn’t depend on calves and crops….kinda like most of the sportsmen clamoring for increased objective numbers.

 

[Ben Lamb]

That’s almost enuf diesel to run one combine for a day!!

Or .19% profit!

 

[JLS]

$5000 each…

And?

 

[shoots-straight]

We take care of the resource and their habitat first, much of our problems go away. The privatization will continue until we make if very clear we won't tolerate this.

Election cycles are coming up. Make sure you vote for sportsmen friendly candidates.

Don't expect to vote for a notable anti sportsmen, FWP agency detractor and think you can just send a message later on, asking them to make the right call.

I appreciate Shooter and Eric saying they are for the resource first. Now they need to make sure their comrades hear their message.

 

[SAJ-99]

We take care of the resource and their habitat first, much of our problems go away. The privatization will continue until we make if very clear we won't tolerate this.

Election cycles are coming up. Make sure you vote for sportsmen friendly candidates.

Don't expect to vote for a notable anti sportsmen, FWP agency detractor and think you can just send a message later on, asking them to make the right call.

I appreciate Shooter and Eric saying they are for the resource first. Now they need to make sure their comrades hear their message.

Unfortunately, no one is going to primary GG.

 

[Big Shooter]

We take care of the resource and their habitat first, much of our problems go away. The privatization will continue until we make if very clear we won't tolerate this.

Election cycles are coming up. Make sure you vote for sportsmen friendly candidates.

Don't expect to vote for a notable anti sportsmen, FWP agency detractor and think you can just send a message later on, asking them to make the right call.

I appreciate Shooter and Eric saying they are for the resource first. Now they need to make sure their comrades hear their message.

Loud and clear!!

 

[SwaggyD]

We take care of the resource and their habitat first, much of our problems go away. The privatization will continue until we make if very clear we won't tolerate this.

Election cycles are coming up. Make sure you vote for sportsmen friendly candidates.

Don't expect to vote for a notable anti sportsmen, FWP agency detractor and think you can just send a message later on, asking them to make the right call.

I appreciate Shooter and Eric saying they are for the resource first. Now they need to make sure their comrades hear their message.

75%+ of Montanans aren’t gonna even consider this when they cast their ballot. How does someone who was apart of that 75%+ make that happen? I was never aware of a lot of this political stuff until I started reading this daily. Seems to me, @DougStickney said, maybe director should be a separate line on the ballot?

Edit: or would that individual just get bought and paid for as well?

 

[Eric Albus]

Good grief!

I am so sickened by the political spin from most of you.


Why are we having a discussion finally about management? Perhaps it is on account of the newly elected Gov, and the newly appointed Director??

The same old for the last 16 certainly did nothing to address the problem.

Change is usually a good thing, and this change at least gives the first glimmer of hope I’ve had on FWP issues, for the first time.
40 plus years waiting for a change, I’ll watch and let some smoke clear before passing judgment and crying politics. I want results, might not like everything I see, but will wait for outcome before yelling FIRE!

 

[tjones]

The same old for the last 16 certainly did nothing to address the problem.

Exactly what did you want the past Governor and directors to do with a R driven legislature? You must have missed high school civics.

We did get lucky with a few vetoes but other then that not much they could have done.

 

[Schaaf]

Good grief!

I am so sickened by the political spin from most of you.


Why are we having a discussion finally about management? Perhaps it is on account of the newly elected Gov, and the newly appointed Director??

The same old for the last 16 certainly did nothing to address the problem.

Change is usually a good thing, and this change at least gives the first glimmer of hope I’ve had on FWP issues, for the first time.
40 plus years waiting for a change, I’ll watch and let some smoke clear before passing judgment and crying politics. I want results, might not like everything I see, but will wait for outcome before yelling FIRE!

Not worth the time.

 

[Nameless Range]

Good grief!

I am so sickened by the political spin from most of you.


Why are we having a discussion finally about management? Perhaps it is on account of the newly elected Gov, and the newly appointed Director??

The same old for the last 16 certainly did nothing to address the problem.

Change is usually a good thing, and this change at least gives the first glimmer of hope I’ve had on FWP issues, for the first time.
40 plus years waiting for a change, I’ll watch and let some smoke clear before passing judgment and crying politics. I want results, might not like everything I see, but will wait for outcome before yelling FIRE!

I don't think it is clear that change is usually a good thing. I don't care about the politics.

I appreciate your interactions on here and your willingness to participate. You have ideas related to the 454 that would be improvements.

But what I hope is you don't sit back and let the smoke clear though. You are in a position of influence. I am concerned, and I am not alone, that when the smoke clears, some of the greatest things about Montana will be cinders.We have seen it happen in other places, where the average guy gets hosed in the extreme. Where the money people run the show. The families who taught me to hunt elk were miners from Jefferson City. They took me all over Montana - I didn't realize it at the time, but there is great value to the soul of Montana in the opportunity of the working man being able to sweat and suffer his way to an elk. To have those chances not swallowed up by the politically connected. I think that is beautiful, and I think that is in danger. I understand something different needs to happen, and I understand compromise will be necessary, but that really sums it up for me, whatever hunting becomes, if the working Montanan can't participate, or is left to play a different game with the scraps, we will have destroyed something virtuous.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I don't think it is clear that change is usually a good thing. I don't care about the politics.

I appreciate your interactions on here and your willingness to participate. You have ideas related to the 454 that would be improvements.

But what I hope is you don't sit back and let the smoke clear though. You are in a position of influence. I am concerned, and I am not alone, that when the smoke clears, some of the greatest things about Montana will be cinders.We have seen it happen in other places, where the average guy gets hosed in the extreme. Where the money people run the show. The families who taught me to hunt elk were miners from Jefferson City. They took me all over Montana - I didn't realize it at the time, but there is great value to the soul of Montana in the opportunity of the working man being able to sweat and suffer his way to an elk. To have those chances not swallowed up by the politically connected. I think that is beautiful, and I think that is in danger. I understand something different needs to happen, and I understand compromise will be necessary, but that really sums it up for me, whatever hunting becomes, if the working Montanan can't participate, or is left to play a different game with the scraps, we will have destroyed something virtuous.

Amen.

Eric,

There's a difference between starting a war and starting a conversation. When hunters pushed for a new EMP since 2015, we were told no by the same people who are now telling us that they have started the conversation. When we pushed for the new EMP planner position in 2019, we were told by the agency staff "there's no problem with elk." People have been trying to have the conversation for years, only to be told no by the same people who have ascended to power now.

I keep posting this, and @406LIFE asked for annotations, so here it is again, footnoted with links and as a pdf:

 

[brocksw]

Good grief!

I am so sickened by the political spin from most of you.


Why are we having a discussion finally about management? Perhaps it is on account of the newly elected Gov, and the newly appointed Director??

The same old for the last 16 certainly did nothing to address the problem.

Change is usually a good thing, and this change at least gives the first glimmer of hope I’ve had on FWP issues, for the first time.
40 plus years waiting for a change, I’ll watch and let some smoke clear before passing judgment and crying politics. I want results, might not like everything I see, but will wait for outcome before yelling FIRE!

First Glimmer of hope? I think the fire is already rippin, man.

• Bulls for billionaires
• Eradicate tens of thousands of elk for UPOM
• shooting pregnant cows in Feb
• spend a million bucks on Pen raised ditch parrots
• silence established biologists and wildlife professionals within the agency
• Make the FWP some place where no one wants to work

 

[DFS]

When the smoke clears and elk hunting statewide is just as crappy as our mule deer hunting? UPOM MOGA governor Gianforte and Director Worsech will be the face of that. I’m not anti outfitter I’m certainly not anti landowner I am against trashing our resource. Maybe you need a biology lesson on controlling elk numbers, bull tags for all isn’t going to fix anything.

 

[SAJ-99]

Amen.

Eric,

There's a difference between starting a war and starting a conversation. When hunters pushed for a new EMP since 2015, we were told no by the same people who are now telling us that they have started the conversation. When we pushed for the new EMP planner position in 2019, we were told by the agency staff "there's no problem with elk." People have been trying to have the conversation for years, only to be told no by the same people who have ascended to power now.

I keep posting this, and @406LIFE asked for annotations, so here it is again, footnoted with links and as a pdf:

It seems the new EMP is being slow played. We have seen multiple advisory committees but really nothing has come out of any of them. The first advisory committee was explicitly told not to consider the main parts we debate here (see below). I know we demand a new EMP, but am I alone in thinking there is a very good chance the new EMP will be worse than the old one?

 

[JLS]

am I alone in thinking there is a very good chance the new EMP will be worse than the old one?

No.

 

[drifter52]

. The first advisory committee was explicitly told not to consider the main parts we debate here (see below).

View attachment 223541

Hmmmm interesting