It is an unwinnable game to begin with.
Ukraine / Russia
- Thread starter Cheesehead
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BigHornRam
Well-known member
Where's Seagal. Can we implant a bomb in him?
MarvB
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Nick87
Well-known member
I don't want to see a war for anyone or anyone's kids. However like most things in life the longer you kick the can down the road the bigger mess it'll be when you finally deal with it.
Nick87
Well-known member
Especially with an ego maniac everyday he goes without a an asswhooping the more powerful he's gonna feel.
DouglasR
Well-known member
With all of this going on, you’ve gotta wonder what the visibility will be like on mt elbert this Sunday/Monday.
Then we can figure it out from there. At least we'd set an example of what happened to the last "rocket man"
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Could the out be that Ukraine cedes some additional territory to Rus then Putin dies of old age...
Nick87
Well-known member
I suppose both sides are hoping they cam stretch it out til after mid term.
RobertD
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I'm almost 100% sure Russia is walking away with gained territory in return for economic sanctions and a damaged reputation. I don't know how we get there but I bet thats the end result.
RobertD
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I am going to be the unpopular guy but hey let's remember 20 years ago when we all started supporting the idea of an incursion into Iraq, and how that ultimately turned out. As I see more Putin anxiety develop in the American public I feel like we're treading a familiar path that none of us really want to go down. I am less afraid of nuclear holocaust than of a long, drawn out grudge match in Eastern Europe. 
BirdManMike
Well-known member
Similar opinion here.
Edit to add: I do not think Russia will leave with the puppet state Putin desires, but he may take Kyiv and cause the Ukraine government to capitulate. I hope this doesn't happen as do we all I am sure.
Good question. Not sure I have any specific answers to that as an average citizen. I guess that is why we have a discussion on it, so we can have the uninformed opinions of accountants and others on topics we aren't professionally qualified to decide. So, I'll let the experts decide, but here is an explanation of what I felt when I wrote that.
Whatever "get in it" means, at least to me, is to do whatever it takes to call his bluff and save a lot more Ukrainian lives and accept this Putin/Russian problem is not going away until we deal with it. I don't feel Putin has the intent of a nuclear escalation, so no, I don't take his threat as seriously as most others seem to. Putin is a smart guy, as much as I hate to admit that. He is going to push as far as he can, threaten as much as he can, to get as much as possible, without destroying his own life and comfort.
He and his corrupt class of billionaires have too much to lose from a nuclear escalation. I might be completely wrong.
It's my opinion that what they fear is a consolidated alliance willing to use every possible mechanism to stop him and support the Ukraine. A protracted and failed effort will endanger his power at home, something many have pointed to as his greatest long-term threat, and something I think the US and allies should leverage. Delay and inaction lessen the chance of domestic unrest for him to deal with. Assisting to the highest level will increase the likelihood of Putin having a huge shit storm on his hands in Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Kazan, Omsk, (insert Russian city here).
A unified alliance willing to suffer the short-term hardships of energy disruptions, stock market declines, increased taxes/spending, is not something Putin counted on. He expected another easy land grab and a bickering alliance of semi-interested complainers. Now that he isn't getting that and the alliance is showing more unity than I ever expected, use that unity and commitment to an ever greater degree, even faster.
Whatever is in the minds of the experts paid to advise on such, I would prefer we "get in it" sooner. Whether that is financial, technological, weapons support, supplies, money, you name it. I worry the US is doing its normal thing of "fiddling while
There is always a large degree of political posturing when the US enters into any geo-political issue. Just a function of how our two-party system plays out. One side is waiting for the other to make a suggestion they can capitalize on. One side might be against a certain idea, as they don't want to take the political risk if it doesn't work perfectly.
I have no tolerance for rejecting potential solutions due to political posturing. I have no use for the delays that come from testing every possible political outcome. I feel any delays from the US and from the allies have a heavy dose of political calculus influencing what is done, as the military and intelligence experts saw this coming for months and have done "what if scenarios" on most of it. Delays in a response is not due to our military and intelligence being caught off guard.
I might be completely off my rock. History has shown the greatest deterrent to person willing to use force is to show great force and inflict pain they aren't willing to suffer, even if they threaten in a big way. I think Putin has put himself in that position right now and this is the time to move with swiftly and powerfully. The experts will decide what that entails.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I would not support ^
I think there is a viable option in allowing russia to, once again, fall from the inside out. I would love unleash uncle Sam right now and help the Ukrainians, but a world war, even one without nukes, doesn't "save" more lives.
I think there is a viable option in allowing russia to, once again, fall from the inside out. I would love unleash uncle Sam right now and help the Ukrainians, but a world war, even one without nukes, doesn't "save" more lives.
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SAJ-99
Well-known member
I agree with Big Fin but it may play out in less-traditional ways. Example, we have the State of Union tonight. I expect Russia to flood social media with negative post about Biden, which will easily be accepted and amplified by 50% of the population because that is what happens at every SOU anyway. This one has the potential to be a tinderbox. This is where everyone can do their part take a step back, recognize what is going on, and not forward stuff on Facebook or Twitter or whatever. There will be time to debate this stuff later.
The nuclear talk seems silly at this point. Sure it is an option, but there is a lot of space between where we are today and that step. I highly doubt Russian oligarchs, who live the high life on yachts and mountain retreats, are willing to blow it all up or die for Putin.
BigHornRam
Well-known member
The experts didn't think Putin would invade. They thought they were dealing with a sane albeit ruthless person. Now they realize they are not. Pushing a crazy man with nukes and a death wish into a corner is not a good strategy. We need some clear thinking competent experts right now to bring a workable plan together. I hope we can do this, for the world's sake.
I got more then a little Sicilian in me. I know who I would talk to if I needed a problem to disappear. I am sure there is a Russian version. The right oligarchs with the right connections and who knows.
Leave the gun, take the Medovik.
Leave the gun, take the Medovik.
406dn
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- Dec 12, 2019
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Just a tip of the hat to Big Fin for allowing this thread to play out and to everyone for keeping it on the rails.
It is a gut wrenching time with no perfect solution visible or likely even existing.
If I had the answer, I wouldn't keep it to myself.
It is a gut wrenching time with no perfect solution visible or likely even existing.
If I had the answer, I wouldn't keep it to myself.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
I can't stop thinking about it. Then I check reuters or bbc or here, just looking for some update. Definitely make me think about what I would do in their shoes.
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